How much land can Prussia gain?

Nietzsche

Banned
Yeah, well, screw the balance of power and the status quo then! Germany has as much a right to existing, and to encompassing all German lands, as France has to exist and to eoncompass all French lands. Chronology doesnt matter in that, and if some people freak out its their problem.

Would you like a biscuit?
 
I maintain that unless Bismarck had some sorta psychic control device a la C&C, he could not well have forced Nappy-3 into the war, and the publication of an abrogated depeche was hardly a good casus belli! Napoleon III, in typical Napoleonist fashion, wanted to have a foreign adventure to overplay domestic troubles. He not only declared war, he also caused it.

Like I said, Bismarck was smarter than Napoleon III. So he couldn't "force" Nappy to do anything; he could still predict what Nappy was going to do and lead him on.

Yeah, well, screw the balance of power and the status quo then! Germany has as much a right to existing, and to encompassing all German lands, as France has to exist and to eoncompass all French lands. Chronology doesnt matter in that, and if some people freak out its their problem.

I was just answering your question about why Germany was seen as a balance of power problem and France wasn't.
 

Susano

Banned
Like I said, Bismarck was smarter than Napoleon III. So he couldn't "force" Nappy to do anything; he could still predict what Nappy was going to do and lead him on.
Yeah well, even in that case it remains Napoleons fualta nd Napoleons aggression. But I dont think Bismarck predicted or intended that outcome, either. The demand Napoleon sended WAS pretty unsufferable, so I think Bismarck simply shot back diplomatically.

I was just answering your question about why Germany was seen as a balance of power problem and France wasn't.
Hmpf, fair enough.
 
Would you like a biscuit?

I think it sounds like he wants a Blue Water navy, some number of colonies, Mitteleuropa, und unseren Platz an der Sonne! In Ostasien wie in Westindien werden wir bestrebt sein, getreu den Ueberlieferungen der deutschen Politik, ohne unnötige Schärfe, aber auch ohne Schwäche unsere Rechte und unsere Interessen zu wahren! (Lebhafter Beifall.)

EDIT: Damn, google translate says the end of that speech is nothing like as incendiary as I'd imagined. Still, you get the reference.
 
Last edited:

Susano

Banned
I think it sounds like he wants a Blue Water navy, some number of colonies, Mitteleuropa, und unseren Platz an der Sonne! In Ostasien wie in Westindien werden wir bestrebt sein, getreu den Ueberlieferungen der deutschen Politik, ohne unnötige Schärfe, aber auch ohne Schwäche unsere Rechte und unsere Interessen zu wahren! (Lebhafter Beifall.)

:D :D :D
Well, at least "Place at the sun" is set in the right context for once:rolleyes:
You just copy-pasted, though, didnt you? (Lebhafter Beifall) is part of the script, but not the speech, it means "lively applause" :D

But no, in itself I only want ethnic borders, and of course in areas of doubt to German advantage ;) Colonies - Myself, Im not big on colonies. Im not big on guns, either. But if everybdoy else has guns, I want to get the biggest one I can get my hands on! :p
 
:D :D :D
Well, at least "Place at the sun" is set in the right context for once:rolleyes:
You just copy-pasted, though, didnt you? (Lebhafter Beifall) is part of the script, but not the speech, it means "lively applause" :D

But no, in itself I only want ethnic borders, and of course in areas of doubt to German advantage ;) Colonies - Myself, Im not big on colonies. Im not big on guns, either. But if everybdoy else has guns, I want to get the biggest one I can get my hands on! :p

No, I did know that - the site I copied from had it on a separate line - I just didn't edit it to being in italics fast enough for your post. :eek: And I was hoping the end of the speech would be "and that is why Germany must stretch from Flanders to Transylvania!" rather than something about east Asia, yeah. But mainly I was just saying you sounded like some turn-of-the-century militarist, rather than that you actually held those views on colonies &c &c.
 

Susano

Banned
No, I did know that - the site I copied from had it on a separate line- I just didn't edit it to being in italics fast enough for your post. And I was hoping the end of the speech would be "and that is why Germany must stretch from Flanders to Transylvania!" rather than something about east Asia, yeah. But mainly I was just saying you sounded like some turn-of-the-century militarist, rather than that you actually held those views on colonies &c &c.

Argh! But thats the point of "Place in the Sun" - "went to put nobody in the shadow, but we want our place in the sun, too". It isnt even overly imperialist or even suprematist, its just saying "If GB and France have colonies, so will we". Its demanding equality to the other European powers, not dominance.
 
Argh! But thats the point of "Place in the Sun" - "went to put nobody in the shadow, but we want our place in the sun, too". It isnt even overly imperialist or even suprematist, its just saying "If GB and France have colonies, so will we". Its demanding equality to the other European powers, not dominance.

Oh, well, in that case, I guess you want a Blue Water Navy, some colonies, Morroco, free Boers, Mitteleuropa, aber auch rächen, nicht nur den Tod des Gesandten, sondern auch vieler Deutscher und Europäer. Wie vor tausend Jahren die Hunnen unter ihrem König Etzel sich einen Namen gemacht, der sie noch jetzt in der Überlieferung gewaltig erscheinen läßt, so möge der Name Deutschland in China in einer solchen Weise bestätigt werden, daß niemals wieder ein Chinese es wagt, etwa einen Deutschen auch nur scheel anzusehen!

...Also probably not quite how you feel, but a little more on my target. ;)
 
Last edited:

Susano

Banned
Oh, well, in that case, I guess you want a Blue Water Navy, some colonies, Morroco, free Boers, aber auch rächen, nicht nur den Tod des Gesandten, sondern auch vieler Deutscher und Europäer. Wie vor tausend Jahren die Hunnen unter ihrem König Etzel sich einen Namen gemacht, der sie noch jetzt in der Überlieferung gewaltig erscheinen läßt, so möge der Name Deutschland in China in einer solchen Weise bestätigt werden, daß niemals wieder ein Chinese es wagt, etwa einen Deutschen auch nur scheel anzusehen!

...Also probably not quite how you feel, but a little more on my target. ;)

:D :p

Well, actually I guess the Place in the Sun speech does in fact fit to what I said, the "If the other powers have colonies, then I want some for Germany, too". Though IIRC the speaker was somebody conservative, so he probably also in general was for colonialism. Me, Im all for decolonisation. Especially of course in any post-WW1 PoDs :D
 
:D :p

Well, actually I guess the Place in the Sun speech does in fact fit to what I said, the "If the other powers have colonies, then I want some for Germany, too". Though IIRC the speaker was somebody conservative, so he probably also in general was for colonialism. Me, Im all for decolonisation. Especially of course in any post-WW1 PoDs :D

I'd like to see a pre-WWI decolonization TL.
 

Susano

Banned
I'd like to see a pre-WWI decolonization TL.

As in decolonisation starts before WW1? Or decolonisation in TLs with a pre-WW1 PoD? The former is totally unrealistic, but my god, do I ever agree with the latter. "No declonisation" is really a clichee here. More even - almost a fetish, given... certain ideological points often represented here.
 
As in decolonisation starts before WW1? Or decolonisation in TLs with a pre-WW1 PoD? The former is totally unrealistic, but my god, do I ever agree with the latter. "No declonisation" is really a clichee here. More even - almost a fetish, given... certain ideological points often represented here.

Starts before, because it would have to be one weird TL.

Yeah, decolonization was pretty much a given post... uh, the start of colonization, I guess.
 
More generic appeals to ahistorical absolutes, that don't take actual period diplomacy into account.
Am I the only one who has been unable to glean any understanding from this sentence. All of the words are standard English (save for "ahistorical"), but together the intended meaning is unclear.



...or the Spanish European empire being dismantled in the War of Spanish Succession or the Partition of Poland ? I did not notice Europe plunging into chaos after such events.
Do you even know the history of the eighteenth century? The Spanish Succession did plunge Europe into chaos and warfare. The War of the Quadruple Alliance was a direct result of the Treaty of Utrecht. Not to mention the plethora of later wars heralded by the Spanish Succession and the rise of the "balance of power" idea in politics. And the Polish Partitions can be seen as a part of a general rise of conflict and chaos in Eastern Europe: from Gustav III's Russian War to the Russian conquest of the Crimea and the Russo-Austrian attack of the Ottomans. The Partitions furthermore served as an attempt to diffuse tension between Prussia, Austria, and Russia, but of course in the end this failed.
 

Typo

Banned
Yeah, well, screw the balance of power and the status quo then! Germany has as much a right to existing, and to encompassing all German lands, as France has to exist and to eoncompass all French lands. Chronology doesnt matter in that, and if some people freak out its their problem.
This reflects my original argument, which is that it only really made sense from the POV of a German nationalist
 
Yeah well, WW1 was a close call. It coudl also have ended with France markedly smaller or disunited - and why does nobody demand that in the name of "avoiding tensions in Europe" or "balance of power"?:rolleyes:

Susano

I think your missing my point. It wasn't Germany's aims but the way the German government went about obtaining them. [Similar in some ways to French actions under the Bourbons and Napoleon and with similar results]. By emphasising their own military power above all else and neglecting the concerns of others they built up the coalition that eventually stood against them and defeated them. If Germany hadn't been so determined on such a path then not only might they have achieve a lot of those territorial and ethnic aims but Germany would almost certainly be larger than it is now.

Steve
 
As in decolonisation starts before WW1? Or decolonisation in TLs with a pre-WW1 PoD? The former is totally unrealistic, but my god, do I ever agree with the latter. "No declonisation" is really a clichee here. More even - almost a fetish, given... certain ideological points often represented here.

Susano & Zyzzyva

Doesn't it depend on what colonial areas your talking about? The Spanish empire in the Americas was no more, the Ottoman empire had already lost a lot as had China. Britain had lost the tax-dodger war:(. In all those cases much/all of the loss had been to local states establishing independence rather than to other powers.

Steve
 
Top