How much can the Mongols wreck Europe?

Would you describe the thrashing of Hungary as by the "skin of their teeth"?

The Mongols don't need to counter heavy cavalry with heavy cavalry of their own. They can just take advantage of the fact knights have about the same sense of discipline as berserkers.

Plus 13th century knights weren`t that heavy yet (mail only, great helms just started to appear), and being formed by small social elite they weren`t so numerous, compared to Mongol horde which mobilised whole tribes for an invasion.
 
Plus 13th century knights weren`t that heavy yet (mail only, great helms just started to appear), and being formed by small social elite they weren`t so numerous, compared to Mongol horde which mobilised whole tribes for an invasion.

Well, the Mongols probably have a smaller army - of Mongols and similar soldiers that is - than France or the HRE can raise, and not much bigger than the most England can.

However, only a fraction of that is knights (I think Edward II's force at Bannockburn is something like one in ten), so this is really just furthering your point.
 

Typo

Banned
Fair enough.



And won only by the skin of their teeth or got totally smashed. Mongol Heavy Cavalry made up only a small proportion of their forces.

Khwarezm Shahdom only fell because it was politically fractured and the Shah did not mobilize his forces or even effectively lead it.

Jelahuddin after scraping together the Lashkar of Afghanistan managed to win a victory at Parwan. Sadly a dispute over a Mongol Horse led to the Lashkar abandoning him and it went downhill from there.

The Mamluks and Delhi Sultanate on the other hand smashed the shit out of the Mongols repeatedly and while fighting several other foes at once in battles where they equaled or had less than the Mongol's forces.

The Song could very well have maintained independence had they not lost control of the Yangzi River.
How do any of those prove your point that Mongols can't go against heavily armored opponents or that they won "only by the skins of their teeth"? What about the times when they smashed actual European knightly armies, such as the Poles and the Hungarians? Again if the Germans take to the woods, how do they retain the sort of society required to maintain an army of heavily armored knights?
 
How do any of those prove your point that Mongols can't go against heavily armored opponents or that they won "only by the skins of their teeth"?

The only thing it really proves is that horse archer armies can be beaten by other horse archer armies with good leadership (or, in case of Baybars, amazing leadership), especially if their horses are stronger and equipment is better - armour does matter, after all. That's the long and the short of the Mamelukes, Delhi and Kwarazm. The bulk of the cavalry in all those cases would have been horse archers, shooting either in carousel or stationary from behind screens of knights or more rarely infantry.

Europe outside Russia and partly Hungary/Byzantines had no equivalent to such an army at all, nor did it have Song's jungles, mountains, river gorges, navy, tropical diseases, fortified cities, gunpowder, political unity and millions of conscriptable men all rolled into one giant bundle.
 
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A little thought aside: In OTL 1291, the first three not-yet-cantons of Switzerland formed their alliance, against the Habsburgs. I wonder how they would do against their Mongolian overlords...
 

The Sandman

Banned
I'd think that Italy and Byzantium would be the most worthwhile targets for the Mongols to hit with the intent to keep something. They're far richer than points northward, after all.

Germany would just be burned and looted. There really isn't enough there to be worth the bother of actually ruling such a fractious bunch. On the other hand, the death of vast portions of the German nobility can only be a good thing as far as future German unity is concerned.
 
I'd think that Italy and Byzantium would be the most worthwhile targets for the Mongols to hit with the intent to keep something. They're far richer than points northward, after all.

Italy seems the most likely target, or at least the one where the Mongols would have the most success. The Byzantine Navy would make an attack from Anatolia difficult, and Constantinople's massive walls would probably grind an attack from Europe to a halt. I suppose it's possible that the Mongol's could always starve the Romans out, but that was never really their style.

Germany would just be burned and looted. There really isn't enough there to be worth the bother of actually ruling such a fractious bunch. On the other hand, the death of vast portions of the German nobility can only be a good thing as far as future German unity is concerned.
Visions of a Holy Roman Khanate now dance in my head...
 
Italy seems the most likely target, or at least the one where the Mongols would have the most success. The Byzantine Navy would make an attack from Anatolia difficult, and Constantinople's massive walls would probably grind an attack from Europe to a halt. I suppose it's possible that the Mongol's could always starve the Romans out, but that was never really their style.


Visions of a Holy Roman Khanate now dance in my head...

Just as a note: What Byzantine navy?

Assuming this is otherwise as OTL, the Byzantines (who are rebuilding in Nicaea) are irrelevant to an attack on Constantinople - Venice's navy might be a big deal though.

The Latin Empire is a joke, and those walls are worthless if insufficiently manned - though given how strong they are, it might not take very much to be sufficient.
 
Just as a note: What Byzantine navy?

Assuming this is otherwise as OTL, the Byzantines (who are rebuilding in Nicaea) are irrelevant to an attack on Constantinople - Venice's navy might be a big deal though.

And I got the dates messed up for when the Mongols would be invading...n00b mistake, sorry. It strikes me that an attack on the Byzantines would precede an attack on the Venetians, so they'll help if they think it's in their best interests. Could the Mongols buy them off?

The Latin Empire is a joke, and those walls are worthless if insufficiently manned - though given how strong they are, it might not take very much to be sufficient.

Yeah, I feel like my point about the walls still stands. The citizens of Constantinople will have to decide whether continued rule by Frankish heretics is preferable to being sacked AGAIN by godless barbarians from the Orient. I'd take the former myself.
 
And I got the dates messed up for when the Mongols would be invading...n00b mistake, sorry. It strikes me that an attack on the Byzantines would precede an attack on the Venetians, so they'll help if they think it's in their best interests. Could the Mongols buy them off?

No worries, I don't think this actually spelled out they attack (if they attack Byzantium) in the 1240s or 1250s. Most likely, but they could rampage around Europe and get around to Byzantium later.

You could just ignore the Byzantines (Nicaeans) as the Mongols, honestly. Or bribe them, or intimidate them. They're not a problem.

Of course if the Mongols continue and come to Byzantium in the 1260s...

Yeah, I feel like my point about the walls still stands. The citizens of Constantinople will have to decide whether continued rule by Frankish heretics is preferable to being sacked AGAIN by godless barbarians from the Orient. I'd take the former myself.
Again? This would be the first time.

And I'm not sure which I'd take, speaking from the Byzantine viewpoint - on one hand, the Franks are hated. On the other hand, Mongols?

:eek:

Damned either way, and picking the wrong side will suck - particularly if the Mongols win.

Not sure on the walls, but that's a statement of uncertainty, not argument. It would be reasonable for them to hold.
 
No worries, I don't think this actually spelled out they attack (if they attack Byzantium) in the 1240s or 1250s. Most likely, but they could rampage around Europe and get around to Byzantium later.

You could just ignore the Byzantines (Nicaeans) as the Mongols, honestly. Or bribe them, or intimidate them. They're not a problem.

Of course if the Mongols continue and come to Byzantium in the 1260s...

Again? This would be the first time.

By again I was referring to 1204. It would be the first Mongol sacking, but not the first sacking.

And I'm not sure which I'd take, speaking from the Byzantine viewpoint - on one hand, the Franks are hated. On the other hand, Mongols?

:eek:

Damned either way, and picking the wrong side will suck - particularly if the Mongols win.

Not sure on the walls, but that's a statement of uncertainty, not argument. It would be reasonable for them to hold.

My only point about the Franks is that they're at least Christian. If the Mongols go through the Balkans and Anatolia in typical Mongol fashion then they may side with the Crusaders. Although turning them out seems just as likely. Now that I think about it, the Mongols would probably just establish the Niceans as puppets in Constantinople and make them pay tribute. The Byzantines would love to have Greeks on the throne again, so they would probably overlook the heavier taxes for the time being.
 
By again I was referring to 1204. It would be the first Mongol sacking, but not the first sacking.
Gotcha.

My only point about the Franks is that they're at least Christian. If the Mongols go through the Balkans and Anatolia in typical Mongol fashion then they may side with the Crusaders. Although turning them out seems just as likely. Now that I think about it, the Mongols would probably just establish the Niceans as puppets in Constantinople and make them pay tribute. The Byzantines would love to have Greeks on the throne again, so they would probably overlook the heavier taxes for the time being.
Yeah, but that "at least Christian" is almost meaningless. The sack of Constantinople in 1204 is as bad or worse than a Mongol one (bloodshed possibly excluded), and their rule since hasn't helped.

Laskaris-puppets...hm, this could be interesting.

Wonder how that impacts history.
 
The Mongols could, theoretically, raid the Germanies and the Italies (the various independent states in what we know as Germany and Italy), possibly sacking Rome, and perhaps even reaching Aachen (old seat of Frankish power). While they might make it as far as Alsace-Lorraine and the Ardennes region, I find it unlikely they could reach Antwerp, Brussels, or Paris.

The Mongols would also use the grazing lands of Romania, Hungary, and southern Poland to consolidate, and thus send raiding parties to Germany, Italy, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Byzantium every year. Its even likely that they would convert to Orthodox Christianity
 
Europe is also far from the Chinese engineers and auxilaries that were involved in the Mongol takeover of China. It also wasn't an overnight thing. It took 20 years.

Time is on Europe's side. The Khan will die at some point, and the horde will have to turn back. As IOTL, it's quite likely that they would never return. They may have had an advanced military concept, but their administrative abilities are practically nil.

Not to mention that the Pannonian plain can only provide grazing for so many horses, and the farther they get from that, it's going to be much harder for them to keep going.
 
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