How many POD's does one need to have Nazi victory?

Your entire argument is based on the Soviets being unable to change, adapt, or be anything other then a paper tiger. History shows that the Soviets can be very adaptable, and forward thinking in thier plans when they need to be. Just as Germany going to war with Russia in 1943 gives them more time to prepare andbuild up forces, it does the same for the Soviets. This of course also depends on if the UK is still involved in the war plan you map out. With them in place maybe the Soviets still fall for "we need all these divisions East to keep them safe from British bombers," but if the UK has already fallen or accepted peace Stalin will not buy it for very long.

We cannot on the one hand point to the Soviets as foolish, ignorant soldiers and at the same time look at history with an unbiased eye. History shows the Soviets were in fact good soldiers, planners, and can win wars.

You miss understand. In the same way that Hitler crippled German War effort, so to did Stalin until war actually began. He was repeatedly warned by many sources about the nazi threat, but choose instead to follow his own instincts on Hitler.

The longer the non-aggression pack lasts, the more his instincts would be validated. Yes The Red Army would rebuild and improve, but only as a peacetime army so in effect little progress at all. They would still have the same doctrine that would fail them just as well in 1943 as it had done in 1941. Many of the Soviet divisions that fought in 1941 had been in existence for decades and they only performed marginally better than the divisions raised months before the invasion.

Germany on the other hand was in an active war and learned allot from their initial clashes with the west. So they would be able to refine a very successful operational doctrine.

When war came yes the soviets did learned from their mistakes slowly and painfully. If the Germans give them years of warfare, they could eventual rebuild to drive the Germans out and repeat history, but that would take some kind of miracle.
 
You miss understand. In the same way that Hitler crippled German War effort, so to did Stalin until war actually began. He was repeatedly warned by many sources about the nazi threat, but choose instead to follow his own instincts on Hitler.

The longer the non-aggression pack lasts, the more his instincts would be validated. Yes The Red Army would rebuild and improve, but only as a peacetime army so in effect little progress at all. They would still have the same doctrine that would fail them just as well in 1943 as it had done in 1941. Many of the Soviet divisions that fought in 1941 had been in existence for decades and they only performed marginally better than the divisions raised months before the invasion.

Germany on the other hand was in an active war and learned allot from their initial clashes with the west. So they would be able to refine a very successful operational doctrine.

When war came yes the soviets did learned from their mistakes slowly and painfully. If the Germans give them years of warfare, they could eventual rebuild to drive the Germans out and repeat history, but that would take some kind of miracle.

Okay so Stalin who encouraged arms build up, military moves against other nations, and strengthening the Stalin Line after Poland was invade is the same guy who no matter what occurs on the European political scene will be unable to improve the Soviet army?

Hey maybe you could look at what the USSR had planned to be fielded and consider how things go. If war comes in 1943 instead of 1941, then USSR has two full years of making T-34's, while Germany pushing forward with tanks to counter the T-34 may be lacking. The Soviet airforce will be in place at airfields along the new Polish border, and yet Germany will still making a crushing blow?

Yes Stalin trusted Hitler and history showed that to be foolish. Yet his actions in encouraging a strong Soviet arm do not make him the man to ruin the USSR.
 
Erase Churchill, FDR and Stalin from the political scene. Not sure how, I`ll leave that up to you guys.


And it would be helpful if the Germans got some of their late war tech early on.
 
Okay so Stalin who encouraged arms build up, military moves against other nations, and strengthening the Stalin Line after Poland was invade is the same guy who no matter what occurs on the European political scene will be unable to improve the Soviet army?

Hey maybe you could look at what the USSR had planned to be fielded and consider how things go. If war comes in 1943 instead of 1941, then USSR has two full years of making T-34's, while Germany pushing forward with tanks to counter the T-34 may be lacking. The Soviet airforce will be in place at airfields along the new Polish border, and yet Germany will still making a crushing blow?

Yes Stalin trusted Hitler and history showed that to be foolish. Yet his actions in encouraging a strong Soviet arm do not make him the man to ruin the USSR.

You can't rebuild an armed forces even in a matter of years. Its not a matter of tanks , its a matter of people training and leadership.And it takes longer than that if its a huge armed forces. Perhaps less armaments spending and more money to training could have helped. The 1940 peace time building levels were 4000 tanks and thus the 1943 armaments level would have added about 8000 new tanks to the soviet inventory, but only 1/2 of those would have been T-34/KV-1. Meanwhile German plans were to build 24,000 tanks by 1944 with 1/2 medium tanks and 1/4 light and 1/4 heavy tanks.

By 1942 the Germab medium tanks would have been the VK-20 which was a cross between a mini Panther and Pz IV tank ,with a 50mm gun that could easily be upgraded to 75mm PAK 40 type gun which was planned from 1939 . The Light tank would likely be some evolution of the Panzer II , perhaps like the Pz 38t. The heavy tank was supposed to be an enlarged Panzer IV in the 30 ton region [VK-30] plus the 75L24 infantry gun and 50mm armor, but it too could be upgraded to the Pak 40 gun and up armored readly.


As to the LW they would be much better equipped and experienced but more important Soviet doctrine emphasised air combat and had little or no alert-intercepetor system. So the same surprise air attack would have the same effective crushing blows as historcially happened .
 

burmafrd

Banned
OIL.

Even if Germany had the extra 200,000 trucks they needed they did not have the fuel to run them.

Lend Lease to Russia: the critical two components were food/raw materials and trucks. This allowed the Russians to concentrate on producing Tanks and Artillery. And the loss of the Ukraine bread basket was compensated for by Lend Lease food. Also the raw materials took the place of the established mines over ran in 41-42.
 

RalofTyr

Banned
There's lots of possibilities and ways to tweak things in order to have the NAZI's win WW2.

TBH, the NAZIs did win world war 2, just the first part of the war. Who's say they could have kept the peace.

Say if they did win in the Soviet Union and conquered to the River Volga, making the Ukraine a German state, who's to say in a decade the Soviets could have been built up enough to run their tanks all over that "Living space" in 1955?



The best alternate history scenario is, Hitler makes a deal with Cthuhlu and the Dark Gods rise up and devour the American cities.
 

Stephen

Banned
If Churchil or Roosevelt die of hart attack before the war then Britain will likely agree to a cease fire after the fall of France or Greece. Germany will then be free to use its full strength on the USSR encircling Moscow. What follows will likely be a Cold war type stand off. Unless Mossley gets elected easing tentions with Britain.
 
What you need is a better WW1 outcome so that the nazis dont have to take stuff from scratch.


However with a better and more rational peace settlement, you probably wont have a Nazi party either - without the Versailles grievances, its possible WW2 as such wouldnt happen at all.
 
However with a better and more rational peace settlement, you probably wont have a Nazi party either - without the Versailles grievances, its possible WW2 as such wouldnt happen at all.

If Germany gets off with a better peace treaty, there is still the fear of the Soviets. And depending on the peace treaty French threats. Even if Germany had far better conditions, the Nazis coming to powah isnt so inconcievable, just made difficult.
 
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