How Many Me-262s To Stop Pverlord

To add a bit; During the weeks before 6th June the USAAF ramped up its medium bomber sorties from a average of around 400-500 per day to 1000 per day. Thats just the twin engined bombers of the 9th AF. For 6th June the combined air fleet managed well over 13,000 sorties over France. There was a surge in the preceeding weeks in Italy and in the East the VVS kept up its air activity. For the week before and after 6th June the Germans were contending with a average of 5,000 to 6,000 offensive sorties daily combined from all fronts.

That's right. As great as the Me262 was when things were going well the one thing it couldn't do was generate sorties, and sortie generation was the only thing that would give the LW a fighting chance. Aside from the terrible life of it's engines which meant fully 1/3 of the force was grounded for engine changes every day there were other things like tyres made of ersatz rubber so blowouts on landing were common causing damage that was a drain on serviceability.
 
I thought the biggest problem was lack of access to correct elements to produce the alloys for a descent quality engine.

There were so many severe problems for the German AF it is difficult to say which was the biggest. Quality decline was endemic in all aircraft engines, in part due to shortages or absence of critical alloys.
 
The unrestored Me262 in the Australian War Memorial is the biggest heap of shit you can imagine. Here is a cutting edge fighter, the fastest (2nd?) aircraft in the world in its day using the cheapest, thrown together, packing-crate plywood for much of the fuselage skin, and the finish is abysmal. Germany was screwed by this point, any jet combat is purely for the glamour.
 
Still ASB, but would it help, the OP by switching Me-262 with F-190's? I know little of planes (they killed my beloved battleships!), so thinking if the OP wants another go I suggest some sort of air superiority fighter with air to mud capabilities- P-47's or Hurricanes? (what were the Nazi versions?)
 
This sound appealing, but I wonder why something simpler, like more barrage rockets, or more artillery, wouldn't be better, simpler, & less inclined to break something already (always...) near its limits, the German fuel supply system.
 
The artillery tubes and ammo is currently being used to shoot at bombers over the reich, rockets fire once per day or have a sudden and unfortunate encounter with counterbattery fire.
 
I thought the biggest problem was lack of access to correct elements to produce the alloys for a descent quality engine.

At this point in the war the Allies had basically crippled Nazi Germany's fuel production capability, and allied bombers were operating with impunity over most of mainland Europe. The Me-262 came too late in the war, and were built in too few numbers to make a difference, and by the time that they were built the Germans no longer had the necessary fuel to use the jet's in large numbers without risking a early collapse of the Eastern Front.

The German's could have found additional sources of fuel by ceasing the V-2 program, and curtailing U-boat operations to just the Type XXI but they could not afford to reduce operational levels in the east, otherwise the Soviets would have steamrolled them much easier.

Germany's best bet for clearing the sky's of allied bombers in my opinion was the HO-229 which could have been devastating had even a handful of squadrons entered service, but even that wonder-jet came too late in the war to make a impact.
 
Even assuming that the Germans deployed significantly more jets earlier in the war in such a way as to effect its outcome, the western Allies would simply have responding by building their own jets. Yes, both the Meteor and the Shooting Star had their own issues, but so did the Me-262 and the Western Allies can always respond by drowning the German's in vastly superior numbers. Western Allied jets weren't heavily developed during the war because the folks calling the shots at their air forces (rightfully) surmised that German jet fighters were of no significant threat and could be dealt with using conventional piston-engine aircraft.

Mind you, more resources put into earlier and more Me-262 production means less resources put toward tank, or u-boat production, or something else, which means the Germans are less well prepared in a different department. The Germans couldn't have really averted their downfall, merely altered its timetable and the exact way in which it happened.
 
Germany's best bet for clearing the sky's of allied bombers in my opinion was the HO-229 which could have been devastating had even a handful of squadrons entered service, but even that wonder-jet came too late in the war to make a impact.

How exactly is the Luftwaffe going to get around the inherent stability issues in the flying-wing configuration of the HO-229? How is it going to be such a devastating weapon when a good number of the craft are lost to crashes? Forget about the airframes, what about the loss of experienced pilots?
 
Mind you, more resources put into earlier and more Me-262 production means less resources put toward tank, or u-boat production, or something else, which means the Germans are less well prepared in a different department. The Germans couldn't have really averted their downfall, merely altered its timetable and the exact way in which it happened.

I'd be interested to see the actual numbers of how much nickel and chromium Germany would need to make 10000 jet engines of 'good' metallic composition, and how much was actually used. I'd also like to see how much strategic materials Germany had and who was using them, because a Jumo004 only weighs about 720 kg and the hot areas needing the strategic metals are a fraction of that.
 
Even if, by some miracle, the Germans do field a large number of Me262s (or any other aircraft you care to name) it won't matter; they have no pilots for such a force. By this stage the Luftwaffe is composed of a small cadre of experienced pilots buttressing a large number of green pilots.

The result is that the majority of these jets will be piloted by men who barely know how to fly them, let alone how to engage in aerial combat. The Allied fighters will have these guys for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and a midnight snack; within a week almost all of them will be dead or in the hospital.

(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Philippine_Sea for a similar situation.)
 
I thought the biggest problem was lack of access to correct elements to produce the alloys for a descent quality engine.

I understand that much of the alloys needed for jet turbines were diverted to the army's tank program. I don't know if this was a good or bad idea.
 
You mean, they take away vital fuel supplies and materials from the Eastern Front...just so they can have some air support while they lose?

It might seem to the German High Command that stopping the American Army from landing was a higher priority (or not). It would not be the craziest idea Hitler ever had, nor the dumbest strategy used by a major combatant in WWII.
 
The problems are a lot deeper than just having enough 262s (with pilots, fuel and functioning powerplants) to gain air superiority. They would then need large numbers of other aircraft to exploit this.

The 262 was never going to be able to sink ships (nor was the Arado 234), so you would need several hundred Dornier 217s or Heinkel 177s equipped with the Hs293 or Fritz-X to have any appreciable effect on the Allied effort - even with air superiority. Given the maintenance issues with the 177 it wouldn't matter what number you started with, the number of servicable aircraft would dwindle rapidly.

The 217 was pretty much the only effective aircraft they had for this and could only carry one Hs293 over distance. Their chances of dealing a death blow to such a large fleet, even with minimal air cover is vanishingly small.

Do-217K-Hs-293A-1.jpg


I'm not arguing, just asking to be educated. Why could not a Me 262 drop a dive bomb? It was originally built as a bomber. And it would not take much to sink some of lighter invasion craft.

What would be key is the mind of the allied high command. If they think the Germans can sink enough ships to disrupt the invasion, they would not start the invasion.
 
Or how worn down the Luftwaffe training infrastructure was. I can only imagine how many would be lost in training accidents before you even get them to Overlord.

That seems totally fair. However the Luftwaffe was not completely without resources, and could allocate them to what it perceived to be it's best advantage, even in 1944.
 
To answer the question as posed, the OTL Me262 fleet of about 200 aircraft never reached 60 sorties in a single day due to a range of factors, most stemming from the unreliability of their engines and their best day was 16 kills. The USAAF alone regularly flew 2500 sorties per day over Europe and the RAF would match this.

So crudely scaling this up, 2000 Me 262s would fly 600 sorties and get 160 kills in a day and 4000 Me 262s would fly 1200 sorties and get 320 kills in a day.

So the magic number of Me 262s needed to stop Overlord would be in the order of 5000 airframes. Which is why people say its impossible.

Data. Awesome.

I believe the original engines were good for ~200 hours between overhauls, before they were forced to sacrifice the much of the original alloys to the army tank program. One could imagine a different decision (which has different tradeoffs).

I do agree that shooting down 320 allied aircraft is not enough to stop D-Day. But sinking ~50 transports scare the allies into stopping the invasion (maybe maybe). Especially if you could concentrate your efforts onto one beach and not scatter them throughout. That might be asking too much of leadership though.
 
To add a bit; During the weeks before 6th June the USAAF ramped up its medium bomber sorties from a average of around 400-500 per day to 1000 per day. Thats just the twin engined bombers of the 9th AF. For 6th June the combined air fleet managed well over 13,000 sorties over France. There was a surge in the preceeding weeks in Italy and in the East the VVS kept up its air activity. For the week before and after 6th June the Germans were contending with a average of 5,000 to 6,000 offensive sorties daily combined from all fronts.

That is pretty convincing.
 
I'm not arguing, just asking to be educated. Why could not a Me 262 drop a dive bomb?

And I'm not looking for an argument. Sorry if it came across like that.

The 262 was totally unsuitable as a bomber, mainly because it was designed from the outset as a fighter and nobody thought about adding a bomb until very late in the development process. It couldn't carry one internally due to lack of space, nor externally round the CoG because the main landing gear got in the way. They were left with the option of either hanging a pair of bombs under the nose either side of the nose landing gear, or towing one behind the aircraft. They actually tried the latter with predictably disastrous results.

If the 262 was going to dive bomb it was going to be extremely limited in the angle it could pull. A vertical dive like the Ju87 would have made the pilot uninsurable, and the shallower the angle the less accurate the bomb is.

The incredibly long nose would have reduced the pilot's visibility forwards and downwards - exactly where he would need to see.

The weight and drag of the bombs cut hte 262's speed to that of a piston engined fighter, so they were interceptable unless the Germans had total air superiority.

The Arado 234 was a far better prospect, but even in that the task of aiming unguided ordnance at a moving target in a 500+ mph dive is not going to achieve any sort of decent hit rate. Ju88 dive bombers could achieve something like a 10% hit rate against ships from a 60 degree dive. Ju87s about 20% from a vertical dive. The 262 would not have got near either of these.
 
Data. Awesome.

I believe the original engines were good for ~200 hours between overhauls, before they were forced to sacrifice the much of the original alloys to the army tank program. One could imagine a different decision (which has different tradeoffs).

I do agree that shooting down 320 allied aircraft is not enough to stop D-Day. But sinking ~50 transports scare the allies into stopping the invasion (maybe maybe). Especially if you could concentrate your efforts onto one beach and not scatter them throughout. That might be asking too much of leadership though.

Not 200 hours, 10-25 hours TBO because the turbine blades stretched and the flame tubes buckled out of shape.

As for bombing, it would do laydown delivery at low level but this technique, while very effective (it was what the RAF Blenheim's did in the Med) produces very high casualties, often 30-40%.

The best role for the Me262 over Normandy would be to contest air superiority so conventional bombers could operate without as much fighter opposition.
 
Top