How long to discover America?

I thought that the gold found by Columbus was not worth the bother, just a few nose plugs etc. What he didn't find was treasure troves that would make sending 3 ships away for a year worth the cost. It wasn't until 20 years later that word of inland empires with massive treasure, enough to make sending hundreds of men worthwhile, became known.
 
Don't have my copy of 1491 handy but as I recall the Iroquis confederation was created through a group of 5 nations who continually raided each other despite similar language and culture (think pre-confederation german states).

An Iroquis medicine man had a vision of a common state and enlisted the help of his brother...a respected war chief who was also a famed orator. Between the two of them they contacted the other 4 tribal groups and aranged for a common meeting. The idea of a confederation was rejected until the war chief stood up and illustrated the concept.

With a single arrow we are like a tribe...easily flown but also easily broken (and broke the arrow in two).

With a group of us we are the strength of numbers and can not be defeated (holding up 5 arrows and trying to break them in half).

At that time an eclipse occured and the concept was felt to be blessed by the gods...this eclipse was also recorded in Europe and the exact day of this meeting is known.


The Iroquois and other native tradition of raiding had many interesting aspects including the capturing of children and women to expand the tribes. Post-european contact it was not uncommon to find blond "natives" as part of the First Nations and information exchange was common. Ironically it wasn't until post 1820's and Sir George Simpson's ruling regarding native wives that caused them to be shunned in "acceptable society" although they never were considered proper for "elite" european presentation.

Will have to dig into this more if you so desire.
 

Thande

Donor
With a single arrow we are like a tribe...easily flown but also easily broken (and broke the arrow in two).

With a group of us we are the strength of numbers and can not be defeated (holding up 5 arrows and trying to break them in half).

Which is also the symbolism of the Etruscan/Roman fasces. Parallel development of a metaphor for strength in unity, or actual influence due to European contact I wonder?
 
I thought that the gold found by Columbus was not worth the bother, just a few nose plugs etc. What he didn't find was treasure troves that would make sending 3 ships away for a year worth the cost. It wasn't until 20 years later that word of inland empires with massive treasure, enough to make sending hundreds of men worthwhile, became known.

True, but finding even a small amount led him to eagerly look for more. The Spanish did find some modest gold deposits on Hispaniola (modern Haiti and Dominican Republic) and the hope of finding more helped stimulate the first waves of Spanish migration to the Caribbean.

Although they didn't really find large amounts of gold and silver until Cortez, there was enough found before then to spur Spanish adventurers to constantly look for more around the Caribbean.
 
I think without Columbus' crazy belief that he could reach Asia going west, which was known to be too far away, the radius of the earth being known at least since classical antiquity, the discovery would be significantly delayed.
 
I sincerely doubt any Norse colonisation of the Americas would succeed. When your only link back to civilisation and thus, supplies, is a land which can barely sustain human populations itself, you're essentially screwed. I just don't subscribe to this whole "Vinland" nonsense. Thus, personally I'd say Norse effect on the Iroquois would be...precisely zilch. At best.
 
The Portugese landed in Brazil not long after Columbus returned to Spain. No reason that the King of Portugal couldn't decide to make it a penal colony, a place to deport felons or other criminals. If the Portugese got word of the Incan Empire, they could have put their own Conquistadors there. If Spain heard of all this gold, you could reasonably expect Spanish conquest of the Aztecs and other Mexicans by 1530. The Monkey Wrench in this plan is that the Portugese might not dare violate the Papal Bull that gave all land west of the tip of Brazil to Spain.
 

Deleted member 5719

I sincerely doubt any Norse colonisation of the Americas would succeed. When your only link back to civilisation and thus, supplies, is a land which can barely sustain human populations itself, you're essentially screwed. I just don't subscribe to this whole "Vinland" nonsense. Thus, personally I'd say Norse effect on the Iroquois would be...precisely zilch. At best.

Disagree. There was a window of opportunity between 1000 and 1250 when Markland/Vinland colonies were feasible. Greenland was more habitable to an agricultural population and the Norwegians, Icelanders and Danes had the geographical knowledge and technology to travel to North America without unacceptable losses.

What prevented this was the removal of England and Ireland from the North Atlantic world, and its insertion into the continental feudal system. The economic and social consequences of England remaining part of the Scandinavian system would mean that there would be greater contact with Greenland from England and Ireland, and Norway would remain more focused on the North Atlantic than in OTL.
 
Disagree. There was a window of opportunity between 1000 and 1250 when Markland/Vinland colonies were feasible. Greenland was more habitable to an agricultural population and the Norwegians, Icelanders and Danes had the geographical knowledge and technology to travel to North America without unacceptable losses.

What prevented this was the removal of England and Ireland from the North Atlantic world, and its insertion into the continental feudal system. The economic and social consequences of England remaining part of the Scandinavian system would mean that there would be greater contact with Greenland from England and Ireland, and Norway would remain more focused on the North Atlantic than in OTL.
IOW, it was ALL William The Conqueror's Fault ...

Hmmm ...

Maybe he was a Bastard?
 
Because Columbus had a rather unique combination of geographic ineptitude, and drive. He believed the globe was a lot smaller than it really is. Most educated people at the time knew better.
I alway heard it the other way, He knew the circumstance of the earth but mis-figured the distance from Paris to Peking [21,000:eek:].

Columbus Married the Daughter of a large Portuguese Family of Navigators. As part of Her Dowry He got access to all the Family's Secret Logbooks.
So He knew about the Canaries and Cape Verde islands from his own voyages, and the logbooks gave him the Azores and Madrids. along with the sailing times.
There were also hints in the logbooks about land to the West, So He wasn't sailing Blind.

So take Chris out of the Picture -- The Daughter marries a young upcoming Portuguese Navigator from a rival Family, Helping unite them and keeping all the secret info in the Family.

Several years later a Portuguese Ship rounding the Gold Coast gets blown SW by a Storm.
The Navigator notes in his log -- that at the same latitude as the Kongo, Sighted a large Jungle Island 5 days sailing to the west. lots of Streams, Stopped and refilled the water Barrels, nothing else of Interest.
The ship continues to the East Indies.

Upon it return to Portugal the Navigator is hoisting a Few with some fellow Navigators to celebrate the safe return.
He mentions the western Island, and a couple others mention they have seen it also. The other Navigators take note of the discussion.

Two years later the ship with one of the others is blown west, The Navigator tells the Captain that there are good stream for the water barrels, but nothing else of Interest.
The Captain accepts that the Navigator knows about this, while the young Assistant Navigator notes this in his new Log.
Within several Years, the Western Island is a open Secrete among the Navigators, and is spread across Europe.

However Argon is busy with it's Italian Processions, and Castile is busy pushing the Requestia into NAfrica.

Sometime around the mid 1500's France send a expedition to check out the Island, as Portugal has the African coast locked up.
 
Once the First ships find the Incans and Aztecs , it'll effectively gurantee the start of Large scale Colonization
 
I sincerely doubt any Norse colonisation of the Americas would succeed. When your only link back to civilisation and thus, supplies, is a land which can barely sustain human populations itself, you're essentially screwed. I just don't subscribe to this whole "Vinland" nonsense. Thus, personally I'd say Norse effect on the Iroquois would be...precisely zilch. At best.

Well, first off you don't need colonization to succeed to have an effect. The Norse technology was about 5000 years ahead of the Iroquois, but at this stage of development, still easily transferred.

Can you imagine the Iroquois with just the Norse ship tech? Or horses?

However, to have an effect that ends up with a recognizably "European" result, you'd need some attention from Europe, agreed.
 
Well, first off you don't need colonization to succeed to have an effect. The Norse technology was about 5000 years ahead of the Iroquois, but at this stage of development, still easily transferred.

Can you imagine the Iroquois with just the Norse ship tech? Or horses?

However, to have an effect that ends up with a recognizably "European" result, you'd need some attention from Europe, agreed.
Err.. Archaeological evidence IIRC shows the Iroquoians didn't seriously take up agriculture until c. 1300 (that's when corn pollen starts seriously showing up in sites). So, 300 years earlier, they aren't really any further ahead of the other First Nations (e.g the Miqmaq)
 
Here is the difficulty anyone faces if they want to create a world in which Native Americans are not conquered by Europeans (or other old world types):

(1) The most advanced Native American social and cultural evolution had essentially stagnated at a level equivalent to the upper Neolothic or early Bronze Age of Mesopotamia (but without key advances such as draught animals, the wheel, and useful metallurgy). Mexican states in AD1500 had progressed little from those of 1000 years before. Same in Peru. There is no reason to believe other, less advanced areas such as the Amazon Basin, US Southwest/Southeast, and eastern Woodlands would ever exceed Mexico and Peru. To develop further, American peoples needed fairly intensive contacts with Europe, Islam, or China to learn new technologies and their value.

(2) The more contact which occurs between Americans and Europeans/Asians, the more likely Americans will suffer the effects of plague or be overwhelmed by the vastly superior technology and political structures of the ancient and highly developed states of the old world. Somehow, you need to develop a model which drastically slows the pace of European exploration and conquest without eliminating it altogether.

I rather like the idea of Norse settlement in Vinland surviving and accidentally or deliberately being a conduit thru which knowledge of key technologies (metallurgy, horses, shipbuilding, gunpowder,etc) is transmitted to local native trading partners, who then become agents for the gradual diffusion of these technologies throughout North America - possibly along with a knowledge that there are lands across the eastern sea where these ideas and people come from. Add in a few Norse Christian missionaries and traders fanning out through Eastern north america, and you might create a sieries of native tribes who have a much better idea of what to expect when the English and Dutch show up in the 1600's. Also, the low intensity contact with missionaries in over several hundred years might give the native populations better immunity to Euopean disease (one of the reason the plagues were so devastating in Mesomarica is that this was a sedentary and very densely populated urban area).

If you can then somehow delay the Iberian explorations of the new world (lets say the reconquista is held up for 200-300 years), it is possible even the MesoAmerican kingdoms may have begun trading for and obtaining metal tools, firearms, etc from the northern Chichimecs - and they know that there are people across the ocean who have been making them.

Then, when Europeans eventually come, be they Hispanic Christians or Al-Andalusian Moslems, the native cultures might be better prepared to hold off or delay their eventual conquest. But they would eventually fall - just as non-western civilizations throughout much of the world fell under the control of either western Christiandom or Middle Eastern Islam. But they would maintain much more of their original nature.

THen there's the Mongols and Chinese to think about, but you have to really change history to get them interested in the New World.
 
I have long been interested in this concept. However, I don't really think that any real window would be sufficient for the Native Americans to develop to the point of really resisting the Europeans. The gulf is just too vast, and only widened by the devastation caused by the introduction of European diseases. What I think is really interesting about this scenario, though, is how things might look in the Americas if colonization were somehow delayed until the nineteenth-century, with the Americas in a position more akin to Africa.

One of the main x-factors in all of this postulation though, is what effects the removal of the Americas would have on Europe, and what shape Europe would take by the time colonization of the Americas 'did' begin in force.
 
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