Suppose Ephialtes does not betray the location of the goat path to the Persian army. How long could the Greeks have held the pass at Thermopylae, and how would the extra time have affected the aftermath of the battle?
everyone always forgets the Thespians were there tooI thought the bulk of the Army had already left by the time the Persians found the goat track, by then only 300 Spartans were left.
everyone always forgets the Thespians were there too
everyone always forgets the Thespians were there too
The thing is that the Greeks did actually rotate their men, they were defending a width that was "wide enough for a single chariot to pass" due to the walls and artificial bogs at that area of the 100 m wide pass, so they continually rotated their 7000 men in and out of the phalanx to keep the men from tiring. And with regards to the breaks every 20 minutes, it's very hard to keep attacking when you have to scramble over a mound of corpses to get at the gap a few meters wide that the Greeks were guarding.It was said by History Channel (when there was still history) that while the 300 Spartans were the elite, there were 1000 other people from 3 other city states, (mostly Thespians). They said that the contributions were mostly forgotten because the stand was referred to as "the last stand of the 300" by Roman Writers and a bunch of modern ones, including the producers. What's funny is that while one of the historians doing that segment wrote a book about Persia which had a chapter talked into detail about 30 individuals, 3 non Spartans, and their known life before dying in the battle... and in the video he himself and the rest of the narrators forget about the non-Spartans for the rest of the episode! After mentioning the forgotten ones, the HC program itself forgets about them, constantly talking about the last defenders as "Spartans"
OK, in all of seriousness, he probably only needed a week at most, probably less. The phalanx CANNOT rotate its men without breaking formation. So, just send cannon fodder into the grinder. Have 1/4 attack and the rest maybe move the dead, but stay close. You'll lose maybe 30 guys for every greek in the front line. The moment one Greek falls out of formation or tried to rotate, have the rest of the fodder guys moves in, while the elite troops follow. The real Persians for some reason gave the Greeks breaks at 20 minute intervals. You could claim it was to remove the bodies, but it doesn't stop themselves from having guys attack and other remove bodies.
Also, look at CinemaSins look at 300. Sin number 63 shows why the Persians should have won on the first night. A lot of historians agree on that, although to be fair the Persians didn't know it would work because their intel wasn't good until traitor guy showed up.
If it really was that simple, and easy to execute, I suspect the Persians would have employed such a tactic without hesitation.I told you, the phalanx is less flexible than other formations like say what the Romans had. All you needed was to have 1/4 guys attack while the rest cleared the bodies. If the greeks tried to rotate, drop the corpse and attack. There is no reason the Persians cleared the bodies and THEN attacked with the next wave.
That still doesn't mean it was something that the Persians could have done.Little known, the Theban contingent wondered why the Persians didn't do JUST THAT
The thing about the Thermopylae position is that it wasn't intended to hold indefinitely - it was intended to hold until Greece as a whole could mobilize their army (from memory there was a major Spartan festival at the time, one they didn't want to fight during?) and it was also intended to hold until the Persians began to suffer serious problems. The army on the plains north of Thermopylae was enormous, and it was a massive logistical feat getting it there at all - but it's also the King-of-Kings right there, and if he's being stalled for two weeks by a few thousand armoured goat farmers while the army eats short rations he begins to look a lot less utterly unstoppable.
(Persian Fire is a good source for the whole of the Greek-Persian conflict.)
That's a good point, yes. Sorry, got mixed up between "sorry, no, religious festival" events for the Spartans.Pretty sure the Spartan religious festival was the holdup during the Marathon campaign. Here, they were fortifying the Isthmus of Corinth because they wanted to go it alone and were stupid enough to think that would work. Anyways, given the subsequent importance of Salamis, I wonder how much more they could have bled the fleet at Artimisium over a couple extra days. That would probably be the real achievement, if one was to be had.
pity they did not listen to the oracle of delphiThat's a good point, yes. Sorry, got mixed up between "sorry, no, religious festival" events for the Spartans.
I'm pretty sure they did - after all, Leonidas went and died, and that was one of the options.pity they did not listen to the oracle of delphi
Your fate, O inhabitants of the broad fields of Sparta,
Is to see your great and famous city destroyed by the sons of Perseus.
Either that, or everyone within the borders of Lacedaemon,
Must mourn the death of a king, sprung from the line of Heracles.
Persian scouts probably would have found the route sooner or later, but it might have taken several days. The big question would be how these extra days impact events at Artemisium.