how long could HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Duke of Edinburgh lasted

They would have done worse. Remember what I wrote about the Forrestal?



I do not agree. the British had no clue how to mount a vectored air defense or use SAM traps or apply the air defense onion. They lost their highly perishable WW II earned skills when they became a North Atlantic convoy navy. Significantly the French, who did not have that combat experience, developed and practiced a form of fleet attack and defense while the British lost theirs. But then the French navy expected to fight in the South Atlantic against their former colonies.



They had those means and did not use them. Someone should have remembered buzz bombs and barrage balloons. Someone should have picked up the phone and dialed 1-800-USN-HELP!



In 1983? Not even the USN could guarantee a low-low-low defense. Still can't (Iraq 2003) unless look down radar is aloft and a Rorsat is keyed up for coverage.



Why send back to me what I wrote? I do not disagree that the British were ill-equipped. However:

They could have begged for US radar equipped FRAM destroyers laid up in reserve. It would have taken months to get the RN up to snuff on picket destroyer tactics, and it would have been expensive. Smoke generators can be improvised, even the kind that can carry a form of "Window" in 1983 that can fool an Exocet. Or simple balloon decoys. The RN refused to fit such decoys to Atlantic Conveyor because it would technically make her "a warship". Guess what their other warships lacked?

Gatling guns. The USN started in 1980 urgent backfits on many ships with Phalanx. Not the best last ditch defense, but as low as those Skyhawks zipped through San Carlos Water? Buzzsaw. 20 mm is cheap. Even manual Gatling guns were /are better than Seacat and Seaslug in those conditions.

I would have seized a forward anchorage, parked subs off the western Falklands and built an airbase outside Argentine air coverage (St Georges) and spent the 3-6 months to prepare properly (^^^) for an amphibious operation (Borrow or convert a STUFT tanker or 2 into an improvised flattop and DOUBLE load helo-lift, even if it has to be helos rented from the FRENCH in case one of the STUFT ships gets axed as happened. BUT that is just 20/20 and a bit of knowledge. it is a lot easier to do things the right way, even with the wrong equipment, than the wrong way with the "alleged" right equipment. Note Maggie Thatcher's cluelessness about her navy and her insistence that it do business right away? Never do a Halsey, when you have time to think it through.


Yay more spahgetti post.

The British did use layered air defence, and SAM traps in the Falklands. The Sea Dart was enough of a long range high level threat that the Argentinians chose to isntead come in low to avoid it, a choice that signifncantly reduced the accuracy and effectivness fo their weapons. Many of the Argentinian bombs did not arm because they were dropped too low. Type 22 and Type 42 escorts were paired up at strategic entrances to the waterway to intercept incoming Argentine attacks with a combination of short range and long range SAMs. This was effective, and several Argentine aircraft were downed this way, though it exacted a toll on the escorts that were put directly in the line of fire. The British though lacking modern CIWS systems, mounted a considerable number of older short range AA guns to their ships. And then there was the Sea Harrier CAP itself. That is four layers of air defence onion, some more effective than others. My argument is that the weakness of that first and most important layers was what lead to the losses, the SHAR was not suited to long range CAP, and it showed. In large part it was the individual skill of FAA pilots that prevented disaster. Had they been equipped with more suitable weapons systems, they would have been able to mount a more effective defence, and establish true air superiority.
Operation Corporate was dogged by inadquacies of equipment for the British forces, that was made up for by a willingness and ability to adapt to the conditions as they were, and an offensive spirit. You are arguing that resolving some of those those equipment deficiencies would in fact make the situtation for them worse... which is quite frankly moonspeak.

And RORSATS as part of a low level air defence system? really?

That alone would make me think that you don't really know what you are talking about. But then you went on to expound on mad ideas about establishing a forward base on 'St George's island'?, I can only assume you mean either South Georgia or King George island, both of which would make a terrible place to build an airbase, (the mountainous glacial terrain, and awful weather only being the most obvious obstables) and would stretch the UK's logsitical ability beyond the limit. I would be careful here, you are verging dangerously close into Frisian islands meme territory.

And then you go off on one over my comment about the Royal Navy having trained to operate in the North Atlantic with MPA support, and were at a disadvantage without it. You didn't even read what I wrote, and assumed I was talking about them taking Nimrods to the South Atlantic. Which is entirely the opposite of my argument. If they had more capable carriers, they would not have been so reliant on land based air, and would consequently have performed better when deprived of it operating in the South Atlantic.

Just so we are clear here is the main point of contention:

Fleet Defence fighters armed with radar guided misiles and controlled by airborne AEW would have prevented the majority of British naval losses in the conflct, by virtue of engaging Argentine airstrikes far out whilst in transit to their targets. The CVA-01 carrying Phantoms and Gannet AEW would have provided that.
 
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McPherson

Banned
Not going to be sidetracked (^^^). Please respond to my points with on point comments that apply. Many of those do not. I thank you for your consideration.

Example: Sea Dart. H/A optimized missile mounted on 2 ships; range slant 40 nm max flyout, effective only 12 n/m and that at medium altitude. Bear killer. Later Sea Dart Mod II will do well. Mod O is a disaster.

The Rapier ashore, los, land-based 4-8 nm unable to track and acquire into San Carlos Water, period.

Onion defense; outer boundary, Harriers to be stationed on patrol on threat vector, impossible to do as their time aloft and distance to the carriers from San Carlos Water 100 km+ was not mutually integrative with the ten minute warning time the anchorage receives from the outlier picket frigates (some of those ships sunk died because they had NO CAP.). So react 5. They could not react fast enough. As for the close in missiles; Seacat and Seaslug...worthless. Ever try to hit a 400 knot crossing target with a manually aimed Oerlikon? Last layer of the alleged onion. So much for the onion. The British did not have one. They did not even have an integrative air defense. What they had was a Japanese WW II every ship for itself scattered air defense. And it cost them.

Rorsats, since the later 1970s have an amazing ability to spot flying aluminum objects against an ocean, for example, The darned things are designed to pick up ships as small as a fighter and pick such ships out of wave clutter from 250 km up. or didn't you know this? Fast is no defense from an echo return to a rorsat.

I mean South Georgia. Rhetoric mistake (mine and yours, so it is mutual) aside, are you seriously trying to argue geography and battlespace management with me with the stuff you just posted above? Just asking, because I doubt you understand what I am showing you.
 
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The tornado didn't have the legs to get to the Falklands and back even with tanker support full stop. The RAF barely managed to get ONE Vulcan bomber there as it is. If the RN did have CVA 01 and CVA 02 the Royal Navy would have shot more poor unfortunate Argentine pilots down due to both the sidewinder and skyflash equipped f4 phantoms. The US WOULD and DID supply the UK with the latest version of the Sidewinder. Using South Georgia as an airbase not a good idea as others have said, reasons being 1: Supply lines being stretched way beyond British or anyones logistics.
2: have you seen South Georgia its a glacier and the weather conditions were and are atrocious.

Using the Nimrods of the kipper Fleet to search for Argentina submarines are and where a good idea due to there searchwater radar and the best ASW operator's on the planet at that time.
 
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Not going to be sidetracked (^^^). Please respond to my points with on point comments that apply. many of those do not. I thank you for your consideration.

Rorsats, since the later 1970s have an amazing ability to spot flying aluminum objects against an ocean, for example, The darned things are designed to pick up ships as small as a fighter and pick such ships out of wave clutter from 250 km up. or didn't you know this? Fast is no defense from an echo return to a rorsat.

I mean South Georgia. Rhetoric mistake (mine and yours, so it is mutual) aside, are you seriously trying to argue geography and battlespace management with me with the stuff you just posted above? Just asking, because I doubt you understand what I am showing you.

Yes I am. Because I think you have no idea what you are talking about.

What I am arguing for is the modern way that Fleet air defence works in naval combat. The primary means of defence is the Combat air patrol, which prevents threats from even getting in range of the defended objective. The British in the Falklands did not have that, a CVA-01 would have given them it.
You are arguing that thaving this capability would have meant they were worse off. Which is nonsensical.

You also seem to be commited to this idea that satellites are a useful means of detecting and engaging air attacks on ships. Which is just wrong on so many levels. Rorsats were used for tracking ships, not aircraft, and even then they had trouble. (not to mention they were a Soviet system, not a US one) They would not have been able to provide viable information back to air defence units in a timely manner, even if they had been able to reliably detect low level fast moving aircraft. They were also very expensive for their capability, and had a very short orbital lfietime.

And where exactly did I mistake South Georgia for another island? Kindly dispose of that gaslighting attitude.

As for my supposed inadequacy in understanding of 'geography and battlespace management' are you still convinced I was talking about supporting Nimrod missions into the South Atlantic? In which case: READ MY POSTS.
 
Yes I am. Because I think you have no idea what you are talking about.

What I am arguing for is the modern way that Fleet air defence works in naval combat. The primary means of defence is the Combat air patrol, which prevents threats from even getting in range of the defended objective. The British in the Falklands did not have that, a CVA-01 would have given them it.
You are arguing that thaving this capability would have meant they were worse off. Which is nonsensical.

You also seem to be commited to this idea that satellites are a useful means of detecting and engaging air attacks on ships. Which is just wrong on so many levels. Rorsats were used for tracking ships, not aircraft, and even then they had trouble. (not to mention they were a Soviet system, not a US one) They would not have been able to provide viable information back to air defence units in a timely manner, even if they had been able to reliably detect low level fast moving aircraft. They were also very expensive for their capability, and had a very short orbital lfietime.

And where exactly did I mistake South Georgia for another island? Kindly dispose of that gaslighting attitude.

As for my supposed inadequacy in understanding of 'geography and battlespace management' are you still convinced I was talking about supporting Nimrod missions into the South Atlantic? In which case: READ MY POSTS.

Agree with you. I'm pretty sure that the RAF did send some of the kipper Fleet to ascension island to help search for Argentina submarines. If the RN did have CVA 01 and CVA 02 the Royal Navy wouldn't be worse off but BETTER off due to having both the F4 phantoms and Blackburn buccaner strike aircraft along with E2 tracker aircraft for AEW. Thus allowing them to intercept incoming strike aircraft before they are in range of exocets launch envelope.

Also as others have said satellites are not a golden BB the technology wasn't developed to have pulse Doppler radar In 1982.
 
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Agree with you. I'm pretty sure that the RAF did send some of the kipper Fleet to ascension island to help search for Argentina submarines. If the RN did have CVA 01 and CVA 02 the Royal Navy wouldn't be worse off but BETTER off due to having both the F4 phantoms and Blackburn buccaner strike aircraft along with E2 tracker aircraft for AEW. Thus allowing them to intercept incoming strike aircraft before they are in range of exocet launch envelope.

Indeed the Nimrods were deployed to Acension, and actually patrolled quite far south and west to help maintain radio contact with the submarines, and clear the way for follow up groups joining the task force. In fact just shortly before the Argentine surrender a number of Nimrods were fitted with sidewinders for self defence, and it was planned that they fly misisons over the Falklands themselves, supported by tankers. But the conflict ended before they were ready.

But that is entirely beside the point. Which as you said better British air defence, equals better task force perforamnce, and worse Argentine performance. Phantoms provide better air defence than SHAR possible could.
 
probably, but getting FAA pilots rated to fly them and a book on operating them from CVA-01 worked up would have taken more time then they had.

if the RN were to get them it would have been as a post war measure
 

McPherson

Banned
The tornado didn't have the legs to get to the Falklands and back even with tanker support full stop. The RAF barely managed to get ONE Vulcan bomber there as it is. If the RN did have CVA 01 and CVA 02 the Royal Navy would have shot more poor unfortunate Argentine pilots down due to both the sidewinder and skyflash equipped f4 phantoms. The US WOULD and DID supply the UK with the latest version of the Sidewinder. Using South Georgia as an airbase not a good idea as others have said, reasons being 1: Supply lines being stretched way beyond British or anyones logistics.
2: have you seen South Georgia its a glacier and the weather conditions were and are atrocious.

Using the Nimrods of the kipper Fleet to search for Argentina submarines are and where a good idea due to there searchwater radar and the best ASW operator's on the planet at that time.

800 nautical miles is the problem.

General characteristics (GR-4)

Performance

Cut that in half for grins and giggles.

Specifications (KC-130J)

Data from Lockheed Martin KC-130J Super Tanker fact sheet,

General characteristics

  • Crew: 4 (two pilots,one crew chief and one loadmaster are minimum crew)
  • Capacity: :kissingheart: 92 passengers or
  • Payload: 42,000 lb (19,090 kg)
  • Length: 97 ft 9 in, 29.79 m (for C-130J-30: 112 ft, 9 in, 34.69 m)
  • Wingspan: 132 ft 7 in (40.41 m)
  • Height: 38 ft 10 in (11.84 m)
  • Wing area: 1,745 ft² (162.1 m²)
  • Empty weight: 75,562 lb (34,274 kg)
  • Useful load: 72,000 lb (33,000 kg)
  • Max. takeoff weight: up to 175,000 lb (79,378 kg); normal 155,000 lb (70,305 kg)
  • Fuel offload capacity: 57,000 lb (26,000 kg)
  • Powerplant: 4 × Rolls-Royce AE 2100D3 turboprop, 4,637 shp (3,458 kW) each
  • Propellers: Dowty R391 6-blade composite propeller, 1 per engine
Performance

  • Maximum speed: 362 knots (417 mph, 671 km/h)
  • Cruise speed: 348 kn (400 mph, 643 km/h)
  • Range: 2,835 nmi (3,262 mi, 5,250 km)
  • Service ceiling: 28,000 ft (8,615 m) with 42,000 pounds (19,090 kilograms) payload
  • Takeoff distance: 3,127 ft (953 m) at 155,000 lb (70,300 kg) gross weight
It seems to me, eminently doable. One tanker per two GR-4s. Figure 24 fighters and 12 tankers. Pucaras wiped out in a lo-lo-lo as the transports chug in. Be a VERY ROUGH landing at Rookers and Surf Bay, but the Argentines if you've done your prep work (naval gunfire, have heard of this?) won't be in too good a shape either and the airfield is a two hour fight after that. I figure no worse than Tulagi and that was a stiffer fight against longer odds.


Might want to do a few fuel and time calculations to check, but I don't think the Argentinians can air cover Stanley. Not that far out from their air bases. Going from South Georgia, it is not so hard for the RAF. Actually EASY compared to what the RN tried to do RTL. And if the US could do it to Afghanistan from the Indian Ocean through Pak airspace using buddy tankers and the short ranged Hornet, then I KNOW the Tornado can do it as hypothesized.

As for South Georgia, have you seen the Aleutians?

South-georgia_grytviken.jpg


(South Georgia). It can be done. Even by the 1983 UK.
 
probably, but getting FAA pilots rated to fly them and a book on operating them from CVA-01 would have taken more time then they had.

if the RN were to get them it would have been as a post war measure

It most likely that the bespoke AEW aircraft intended for the CVA-01 that was to sue the same troubled radar as the nimrod AEW, gets cancelled, and the Gannets soldier on, perhaps with the introduction of Gannet AEW.7 (a Gannett with the radar form an E-2) as improvement. Though given the timline, that might end up happening after the conflict.
 
800 nautical miles is the problem.

General characteristics (GR-4)

Performance

Cut that in half for grins and giggles.

Specifications (KC-130J)

Data from Lockheed Martin KC-130J Super Tanker fact sheet,

General characteristics

  • Crew: 4 (two pilots,one crew chief and one loadmaster are minimum crew)
  • Capacity: :kissingheart: 92 passengers or
  • Payload: 42,000 lb (19,090 kg)
  • Length: 97 ft 9 in, 29.79 m (for C-130J-30: 112 ft, 9 in, 34.69 m)
  • Wingspan: 132 ft 7 in (40.41 m)
  • Height: 38 ft 10 in (11.84 m)
  • Wing area: 1,745 ft² (162.1 m²)
  • Empty weight: 75,562 lb (34,274 kg)
  • Useful load: 72,000 lb (33,000 kg)
  • Max. takeoff weight: up to 175,000 lb (79,378 kg); normal 155,000 lb (70,305 kg)
  • Fuel offload capacity: 57,000 lb (26,000 kg)
  • Powerplant: 4 × Rolls-Royce AE 2100D3 turboprop, 4,637 shp (3,458 kW) each
  • Propellers: Dowty R391 6-blade composite propeller, 1 per engine
Performance

  • Maximum speed: 362 knots (417 mph, 671 km/h)
  • Cruise speed: 348 kn (400 mph, 643 km/h)
  • Range: 2,835 nmi (3,262 mi, 5,250 km)
  • Service ceiling: 28,000 ft (8,615 m) with 42,000 pounds (19,090 kilograms) payload
  • Takeoff distance: 3,127 ft (953 m) at 155,000 lb (70,300 kg) gross weight
It seems to me, eminently doable. One tanker per two GR-4s. Figure 24 fighters and 12 tankers. Pucaras wiped out in a lo-lo-lo as the transports chug in. Be a VERY ROUGH landing at Rookers and Surf Bay, but the Argentines if you've done your prep work (naval gunfire, have heard of this?) won't be in too good a shape either and the airfield is a two hour fight after that. I figure no worse than Tulagi and that was a stiffer fight against longer odds.


Might want to do a few fuel and time calculations to check, but I don't think the Argentinians can air cover Stanley. Not that far out from their air bases. Going from South Georgia, it is not so hard for the RAF. Actually EASY compared to what the RN tried to do RTL. And if the US could do it to Afghanistan from the Indian Ocean through Pak airspace using buddy tankers and the short ranged Hornet, then I KNOW the Tornado can do it as hypothesized.

As for South Georgia, have you seen the Aleutians?

South-georgia_grytviken.jpg


(South Georgia). It can be done. Even by the 1983 UK.


That is a very selective picture of South Georgia. Factually most of the time it does not look like that, especially in southern hemisphere winter. In reality the South Atlantic islands experiance snow one in every three days, and hurricane force winds. The southern latitiudes have a fearsome reputation going back centuries, to which the Aleutians cannot compare. Also look at a map of South Gerogia. Where exacly does this massive airbase get built? The topography is entirely glaciated peaks and fjords.


Currently your alternative and 'superior' solution to using a proper, albeit flawed, fleet carrier is to get the Tornado ADV into service three years early, build a giant airbase on top of a glacier during Antarctic winter, ferry the aircraft down there using tankers that wouldn't come into service for twenty-two years, and then invade in the face of prepared and dug in Argentine defences once all politcal support and symapthy at home and abroad had evaporated...

I think its offical. The South Georgia Strategy now stands up there with the Frisian Islands Option.

Utter Lunacy
 
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this is South Georgia in the winter

while it wasn't quite that bad in 1982 it was still bleak, frozen and inhospitable

South%20Georgia%2082,%20Santa%20Fe.jpg
 
Didn't Nimrod's fly over 100 LRMP sorties from Wideawake during the conflict?

Quick spot of Google fu - "The use of air-to-air refuelling allowed extremely long reconnaissance missions to be mounted, one example being a 19-hour 15-minute patrol conducted on 15 May 1982, which passed within 60 miles (97 km) of the Argentine coast to confirm that Argentine surface vessels were not at sea. Another long-range flight was carried out by an MR2 on the night of 20/21 May, covering a total of 8,453 miles (13,609 km), the longest distance flight carried out during the Falklands War.[60] In all, Nimrods flew 111 missions from Ascension in support of British operations during the Falklands War"

Sooooo yes then
 

Riain

Banned
The RAF could put a single plane into the OA each day, the 6 Black Bucks were the most famous but there were also Victor radar recon missions, Nimrod missions and Hercules parachute drops including the SAS and Gen Moore. In addition Nimrods had the range to do 10-12 hour missions a good way down into the AO and towards the Argentina coast
 
So in 1967 the British Royal Navy was able to build HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Duke of Edinburgh , how long would the RN been able to keep these ships going. They would be commission by 1972 and 74
View attachment 404183omnisedhisindo

Ships in the RN from this period had roughly at least 20 years service - the Invincible served for 25 years

So I would guess that at minimum you would see them serving on into the early 90s and I can see them continuing to serve beyond that until the peace dividend kicks in (drawdown of RAF Germany and BAOR and forces reduced / returned to the UK) allowing for replacements to be budgeted in from the mid / late 90s with 2 larger hulls built in the noughties.

As for the light carriers - they probably would not be built with the QE and DoE serving the ASW role with a superior secondary strike role in any WW3 scenario - both for budgetary reasons and manpower issues - as it is the MOD would struggle to man both the carriers and the necessary escorts into the late 70s / early 80s and with Phantom and Buccaneer no need to navalise the Harrier.

Not to say that harrier would not serve at sea - just not as a Naval aircraft ie no SHAR - only GR3's etc and only then for cross service (or USMC joint ops?)

Would Hermes and/or Bulwark serve on into the 80s and be ski ramped - unlikely - again money and manpower restrictions would probably remove the 'commando carriers' with the 2 new carriers having to step into that role.

Ark Royal would be gone as well much earlier - pretty much by the time DoE is commissioned - no need to keep her in service in that environment

Post a Falklands scenario we might see a modern HMS Bulwark style Helicopter commando carrier like OTL but without the Falklands we may see a John Nott style axe descend upon the RN and the Royal Marines in the early 80s (to pay for Trident) with the fleet being severely degraded and the carriers placed into a long term reserve with one unit on limited duty and the FAA greatly reduced in operational aircraft and the Royal Marine Corps disappear altogether as a fighting Brigade.

........I need a moment

I'm okay....just something in my eye

So if they survive the politics of the day they might serve on - but it's possible that their existence ensures that the Falklands war does not happen - I appreciate that I cannot go through the looking glass and understand the mindset of the Argentine Junta as it is alien to me and they may very well convince themselves that even with Phantom/Bucc carrying carrier(s) Britain is not interested in fighting and that they can do an "Annexation of Goa" invade and occupy the Falklands and other islands with no fallout from the international community.

Then its game on as the RN was unlike in other wars it won, 'rewarded' for winning the Falklands with the treasury purse strings lossened and the Carriers would be safe for the foreseeable future and the monies for Trident found from another pot!

So unless they get axed in the 80s (probably not as Nott was reducing the navy to 2 carriers anyway) then they are likely to serve on into the early noughties when replaced with Ark Royal and Eagle which are likely to be CATOBAR versions of the Current QE design

So they would serve on until the 2000s IMO

I wonder what they would look like by then?

I suspect the Sea Dart would have gone with the deck lengthened and the ship armed with 3 or more Phalanx

We might have seen a replacement for Bristol and her sisters in the form of a true type '64' heavy Destroyer armed with VL Sea Dart and VL Sea Wolf? (And a MK8 and Goal Keeper/Phalanx and 30mm guns.....and miniguns and gpmgs) - but probably Nott...I mean not.
 
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