How long could a fascist Mexico last?

Alright, this is partially inspired by the "One Century" thread in the ASB forum. In that thread, Mexico was taken over by Nazi-analogs (called "Penlems" in that TL). They were racist against whites and hated Americans specifically. My question is this: Since the US had a history of interfering in Latin American countries with governments that they didn't like, how long could an anti-white fascist regime realistically survive in Mexico before the US attempts some sort of intervention?
 

wormyguy

Banned
When is this, exactly? (and what's the context? Is America falling apart? The world's sole hyperpower? Somewhere in between?)
 
Like he said, when is this supposed to be happening? After fascism crysatllizes as an ideology? Or some nationalist proto-fascist movement following, say, French interventions or American wars?
 
Sorry, should have given more info in the OP. :eek: I was trying to make it as open ended as possible.

In the "One Century" TL, this took place in the 1920s, and the US was slightly stronger than OTL (but only slightly). It happened after the US annexed some of the Mexican border region after a second mexican war. They imposed massive war reparations (think OTL Germany after WW1) which led to a rise in anti-American sentiment. The circumstances surrounding the rise of the "Penlems" was pretty ASB, which is why I didn't go into it in the OP.

Realistically, I was asking the question in as broad a context as I could. Regardless of when it develops, how long could a radical anti-American dictatorship last on America's southern border?
 
I'd say a year at the most, the United States, ever since it could, has never been willing to let an openly hostile regime rule in Mexico, be they on the Left or Right.

Add to that you'd likely have American's being supportive of eliminating the regime, and well, it'd be like a fish in a barrel with five machine aimed, and firing at it.
 
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I think it can be a dictatorial and unfriendly regime that can get away with it as long as it wasn't overtly hostile towards the U.S.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Let's see. The US is in the Roaring Twenties, but even more powerful and influential in Latin America than OTL. They just fought a war against Mexico, coming much better-off (presumably because of a more aggressive reaction to Poncho Villa, even more than the Veracruz incident).

It would never come to power in the first place. If it somehow did, I'd give it a week at best.
 
They'd last however long it takes America to knock their block off. Considering that some of the extremist in Mexico claim America 'stole' their land (no, we bought it after we conquered it) and would no doubt try some scheme to get it back. It'll be like the Zimmerman Telegram all over again. They'd pick a fight with America, and America would do a little regime change on them.
 
See my TL for some thoughts on a Fascist Mexico.
But I think that any form of Fascist Mexico would be taken care of within a year or so.
 
They'd last however long it takes America to knock their block off. Considering that some of the extremist in Mexico claim America 'stole' their land (no, we bought it after we conquered it) and would no doubt try some scheme to get it back. It'll be like the Zimmerman Telegram all over again. They'd pick a fight with America, and America would do a little regime change on them.
Uhh... it was a land grab. Mexico did not willingly sell that land.
Anyways, I can't see this surviving. The regime wouldn't have time to get rid of it's internal enemies and these would simply be covertly funded by the USA to topple it. If it does manage to secure itself internally, then we have an interesting Mexican war. The USA would militarily outclass it, but it would actually have to fight someone and then possibly face a guerrilla war. Well, depending on what they do and how popular the fascists are. If it's a regime change against an unpopular regime, then the Americans could get out quickly. If the fascists are popular, then we could see the fascist party losing power, but the ideology and party members would probably stay and the new regime simply wouldn't make the mistake of angering the USA overtly while still staying hostile.
 
I will elaborate on how this Mexico was created in the game:

Okay, so, America goes to war w/ Mexico again in 1914. WWI is averted and the only war is in the Balkans. America occupied and forced the Northern Region of Mexico to be friendly to them. They assumed this would cripple the rest of Mexico. So, the remainder of Mexico balkanized into: Mexico, Yucatan, and Azteca.

America, in preparation for a Mexican counter-attack, began mass industrial programs in Northern Mexico. A series of events happens that decreases American-British/French tensions greatly. America gets closer to Germany, and France secretly begins sending aid to Mexico, while Britain secretly supports Yucatan, and Azteca plays a slightly neutral role, telling things to both sides.

Mexico comes under a good old fashioned dictatorship (if I remember correctly. It may have been communist). Finally, Mexico outright attacks the US-puppet of Northern Mexico. Mexico is once again beaten.

Mass reparations, after the army is humiliated multiple times. But, the point of the conflict is that Mexico learns modern warfare, very well. Afterwards, they begin lobbying for industrial programs imported from Britain and France. Azteca, claiming to be fearing a Mexican invasion, asks for American help in building a navy, and means to support it.

American-British/French tensions get worse and worse, as America slowly moves to the central powers camp. Northern Mexico eventually petitions America to take it's troops home (Teddy Roosevelt in wheelchair is president at the time. He dies around 192X TTL, and Al Smith became President). So, we end up with very nationalist Mexicans, encompassing 4 nations, each being industrialized by different powers. The people eventually get a fascist government up, disatisfied with the status quo.

Finally, in 1920 (I believe it was January), Mexico annexes Northern Mexico, Azteca, and Yucatan. This is a much different Mexico than OTL. This one has been industrializing and practicing methods of modern warfare for six years.

Now, there's the "Penlem" Mexico the OP is speaking of.
 
They'd last however long it takes America to knock their block off. Considering that some of the extremist in Mexico claim America 'stole' their land (no, we bought it after we conquered it) and would no doubt try some scheme to get it back. It'll be like the Zimmerman Telegram all over again. They'd pick a fight with America, and America would do a little regime change on them.

It's not "extremists" but the majority of historians and Mexicans and those Americans who know their history. The US govt didn't pay a single dime. They conveniently claimed "damages" which matched exactly the amount supposedly paid.

And BTW you personally didn't conquer it. The soldiers of that time did. There's also some who argue the Zimmerman telegram was a forgery, but at the very least it was conveniently leaked by British intel to stir up anti German hostility in the US public.
 
I will elaborate on how this Mexico was created in the game:

Okay, so, America goes to war w/ Mexico again in 1914. WWI is averted and the only war is in the Balkans. America occupied and forced the Northern Region of Mexico to be friendly to them. They assumed this would cripple the rest of Mexico. So, the remainder of Mexico balkanized into: Mexico, Yucatan, and Azteca.

America, in preparation for a Mexican counter-attack, began mass industrial programs in Northern Mexico. A series of events happens that decreases American-British/French tensions greatly. America gets closer to Germany, and France secretly begins sending aid to Mexico, while Britain secretly supports Yucatan, and Azteca plays a slightly neutral role, telling things to both sides.

Mexico comes under a good old fashioned dictatorship (if I remember correctly. It may have been communist). Finally, Mexico outright attacks the US-puppet of Northern Mexico. Mexico is once again beaten.

Mass reparations, after the army is humiliated multiple times. But, the point of the conflict is that Mexico learns modern warfare, very well. Afterwards, they begin lobbying for industrial programs imported from Britain and France. Azteca, claiming to be fearing a Mexican invasion, asks for American help in building a navy, and means to support it.

American-British/French tensions get worse and worse, as America slowly moves to the central powers camp. Northern Mexico eventually petitions America to take it's troops home (Teddy Roosevelt in wheelchair is president at the time. He dies around 192X TTL, and Al Smith became President). So, we end up with very nationalist Mexicans, encompassing 4 nations, each being industrialized by different powers. The people eventually get a fascist government up, disatisfied with the status quo.

Finally, in 1920 (I believe it was January), Mexico annexes Northern Mexico, Azteca, and Yucatan. This is a much different Mexico than OTL. This one has been industrializing and practicing methods of modern warfare for six years.

Now, there's the "Penlem" Mexico the OP is speaking of.

There's some problems with these PODs. Why wouldn't the US simply prevent industrialization if it knew it was aimed at being stronger for the next war? Why not sponsor an overthrow prior to the war?And is this a fascist state, Communist, or just a dictatorship?

IOTL the closest thing to a fascist mvmt in Mexico were not anti white at all. They promoted Hispanidad, the idea that Mexico's Spanish ancestry and heritage truly represented the superior part of Mexico and that mixed race and Indians were inferior and caused its weaknesses. In any case I can't see a racist mvmt taking much of a hold in an Indian population because it hasn't historically. Racism is a western construct and ideology. Fascist and racist mvmts in Latin America tend to have the most support from Euro-descended peoples ie the Integralists or the right wing of the Peronists.

Like others say, I can't see this regime lasting long short of something even more drastically ASB like an atomic bomb program or intervention from outer space.
 

Goldstein

Banned
IOTL the closest thing to a fascist mvmt in Mexico were not anti white at all. They promoted Hispanidad, the idea that Mexico's Spanish ancestry and heritage truly represented the superior part of Mexico and that mixed race and Indians were inferior and caused its weaknesses.

But a movement like that was doomed to fail in Mexico, as the Mexicans with a pure caucasian Spanish ancestry are less than 10% of the whole (besides, in general terms Mexico hosts one of the strongest hispanophobic bias). More than an amerindian racism, I could envision a hybrid vigour-like doctrine, that is, the idea of mestizos being a superior breed. As for how a Nazi-like Mexico could come up... maybe a longer Huerta dictatorship could be a good start, deriving to a populist-nationalist counterreaction.
 
I was fiddling with this for a timeline I was working on, no European intervention in Mexico etc. I found by doing research, that OTL Mexico wasn't really that different from Weimar Germany. The average citizen was anti-American, just as the average German was anti-allies/French. There was a group, I cannot remember it's name, but it was a paramilitary group, that if they gained power, which I believe they almost did OTL, they could have easily turned Mexico into fascist state. I'm not sure how long it would last though.
 
A Fascist Mexico that wasn't too agressively anti-American and which didn't expropriate US property and so on could probably last a while. After all, a lot of Americans thought quite highly of Mussolini: it's not like the US had any sort of real problem with dictatorships in Latin America as long as they respected property rights and didn't harrass US citizens.

Bruce
 
As long as this Mexico has the good sense to steer well clear of America on, well, anything, it will quite likely last. The hammer will come down if they start going on about 'the lost lands' and bug Americans.
 
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