How late is too late for Spain to reemerge as an Empire?

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The sub quoted is really an overpriced mine.

3kt underwater is barely station keeping and if early torpedo prices are anything like interwar this is a very pricey weapon. As it would have to be prepositioned and in anything like a current have difficulty aiming while submerged its a mine.

Surfaced its difficult to see what advantage it would have over a contemporary torpedo boat, which would be far less complex and much faster.

Really from the Latin American independence wars vs the Spanish everything is outside Spanish control and subject to the Monroe doctine.

So probably not spending the 18th century more or less constantly at war with the British would help.
 

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Well, if you can prevent the Carlist Wars Spain would be in a much stronger position for one but you need to do something about the reactionary sentiment.

I always like the idea of Spain managing to keep Peru (like the British keeping Canada) in the Revolutionary wars. The resources there would help immensely.

You mean after the loss of most of the colonies in the Americas? Well, there was a TL here when I first registered that had Spain controlling Taiwan, more parts of Indonesia, the Dominican republic and Morocco, but nothing as far as the Middle Eastern conquests suggested in this thread. I can`t remember what the TL was called, though.
Indonesia? Now that's interesting. I've always wanted to see what Spanish Indonesia would look like, and the 1800s it'd be fascinating to see if either they take Sarawak and North Borneo or just fight the Dutch again.
 
The sub quoted is really an overpriced mine.

3kt underwater is barely station keeping and if early torpedo prices are anything like interwar this is a very pricey weapon. As it would have to be prepositioned and in anything like a current have difficulty aiming while submerged its a mine.

Surfaced its difficult to see what advantage it would have over a contemporary torpedo boat, which would be far less complex and much faster.

That first submarine had flaws but that's like saying that the wright flyer was just an expensive kite or the ENIAC computer was just an expensive adding machine. Dismissing this as a glorified mine makes light of a genuinely impressive technical achievement that was being undertaken in construction, design and real world testing of a new concept, regardless of the combat ability of that particular model. This was an experimental machine and the first one to have the basic ingredients necessary to act as a submersible war machine. If it had been given proper attention, I understand that Peral would have added some refinements - in particular an internal combustion engine.

If Peral had lived in a Spain that was open to his ideas and that had the resources to support them better, he might made a truly world-changing weapon. Who knows what other opportunities Spain missed for the same reasons? If nothing else, the case of Peral's submarine shows that 19th century Spain was not sufficiently conducive to the kind of progress it needed to regain the status in the world it had enjoyed just 100 years earlier.

We need a separate thread for this topic.
 
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The sub quoted is really an overpriced mine.

3kt underwater is barely station keeping and if early torpedo prices are anything like interwar this is a very pricey weapon. As it would have to be prepositioned and in anything like a current have difficulty aiming while submerged its a mine.

Surfaced its difficult to see what advantage it would have over a contemporary torpedo boat, which would be far less complex and much faster.

Really from the Latin American independence wars vs the Spanish everything is outside Spanish control and subject to the Monroe doctine.

So probably not spending the 18th century more or less constantly at war with the British would help.

the First German U-boats were doing 5 kts submerged. The defensive submarines like the coastal U-boats were doing also the same speed submerged. All of which had combustion engines.

The tech was in the time frame. What mattered is the support of the government which an OTL conservative Spain never supported.

We are talking about a Spanish wank to dominate the seas which required it to at least be open to new ideas and technologies like the emerging powers Germany, USA and Japan did in OTL.

If Spain were as conservative as OTL in ATL, then we shouldnt talk about this wank or thread at all.
 
There are several issues

First Acknowledgement that up to the early 1900s Spanish engineers were quite prominent in sub design.

Second is as a coast defence weapon it may be of value when you get to the Mk IV version. Until then it is not. It is a money pit of uncertain utility and more likely to prevent the Spanish from acquiring the means of reemerging as an Empire as a consequence.

Third in order for it to be an advantage it has to be either uniquely available to the Spanish for a reasonable period or available in disproportionate numbers. and have an effect.

At best early subs are coast and harbour defence vessels, they will protect what you have but after 1898 the Spanish have nothing.

If you want a spain wank that late. Give them the far more likely and far cheaper option of introducing QF artillery in time to chew up the US army in Cuba and rebels everywhere or better yet have someone work out an indirect fire system a la Japanese army in the russo japanese war early.

There should be enough experience even from colonial wars in hilly bits to demonstrate the utility.
 
Perchance, could the Spanish have taken the Congo? The Belgians were able to do it, so a Spain that is not focused on reconquering its rebellious colonies (at least as much) might could get into the Congo as their major African Colony.

Other than that, agree with the others in the thread. If we're looking for a Spain that has lost its major colonies to leap back into power, Southeast Asia and the Middle East is the way to go. They just have to act fast, which, after losing their colonies, they might not be capable of. I doubt that they can take the requisite mental effort to get over their old flame of America and chase the new wealth.

One possible way to do it might be to have them retain one of the colonies on the mainland. That might assuage their pride enough that they can look elsewhere to keep expanding the Empire. If that were the case, they probably should try to keep New Granada. Mexico is too distant from Spain and too close to the United States. Without New Granada, Peru is a harder to get to and is too far from Spain in too many regards. New Granada is close to their Caribbean holdings.

With, say, New Granada remaining in the Empire, I can see them deciding to shed the rest of the continent as dead weight (with the sense that, soon, they will show their superiority to the breakaways, anyway) and turn towards the east once more. Take as much of Borneo and the East Indies that are still free, and as much of Arabia as they can. It really just depends.

A presumptive list of things to do in that scenario (granted, I don't understand the political climate in general, so I'm not sure the turn of events which would allow for this to happen. just that X various things might be the best route) P.O.D. Congress of Vienna

Retain New Granada Somehow
Let other colonies go (relatively) peacefully. Site Great Britain's trouble with the US, and how years of attempts to retake the lands would be fruitless.
Do keep an eye out for the Central Americans if they break away, and try to keep them in sphere.
Find an ally in the Western Hemisphere in order to allow focus to shift east.
(Possible sell of Florida to US and renegotiating of US-New Spain border to precede talks of alliance? POD precedes Monroe Doctrine)
(Calmly remind both the breakaways and the US that they are no longer under Spanish protection, and they would not be assisted by the crown from any foreign invasion)
(Or possible Portuguese alliance. Would possibly allow use of Portuguese ports on East Coast of Africa)
Establish land colony on African coast. (Possibly in Cameroon or Congo)
Reinforce Philippines. Start expanding into Borneo and south into New Guinea.
Start looking towards Arabia (particularly, Oman)


Of course, the problems here would give Spain a large presence in the East Indies, squat between Japan and Britain. Might be interesting to see an Anglo-Japanese alliance counteracted by a Spanish-American one. The trick is figuring out how to make all this happen. That's the only way I see a major colonial Spain still surviving.
 
Carlist wars for sure. Avoid them and Spain comes out stronger in the American-Spanish war. After all till 1899 Spain was still considered somewhat of a great power.
 
Perchance, could the Spanish have taken the Congo? The Belgians were able to do it, so a Spain that is not focused on reconquering its rebellious colonies (at least as much) might could get into the Congo as their major African Colony.

Other than that, agree with the others in the thread. If we're looking for a Spain that has lost its major colonies to leap back into power, Southeast Asia and the Middle East is the way to go. They just have to act fast, which, after losing their colonies, they might not be capable of. I doubt that they can take the requisite mental effort to get over their old flame of America and chase the new wealth.

One possible way to do it might be to have them retain one of the colonies on the mainland. That might assuage their pride enough that they can look elsewhere to keep expanding the Empire. If that were the case, they probably should try to keep New Granada. Mexico is too distant from Spain and too close to the United States. Without New Granada, Peru is a harder to get to and is too far from Spain in too many regards. New Granada is close to their Caribbean holdings.

With, say, New Granada remaining in the Empire, I can see them deciding to shed the rest of the continent as dead weight (with the sense that, soon, they will show their superiority to the breakaways, anyway) and turn towards the east once more. Take as much of Borneo and the East Indies that are still free, and as much of Arabia as they can. It really just depends.

A presumptive list of things to do in that scenario (granted, I don't understand the political climate in general, so I'm not sure the turn of events which would allow for this to happen. just that X various things might be the best route) P.O.D. Congress of Vienna

Retain New Granada Somehow
Let other colonies go (relatively) peacefully. Site Great Britain's trouble with the US, and how years of attempts to retake the lands would be fruitless.
Do keep an eye out for the Central Americans if they break away, and try to keep them in sphere.
Find an ally in the Western Hemisphere in order to allow focus to shift east.
(Possible sell of Florida to US and renegotiating of US-New Spain border to precede talks of alliance? POD precedes Monroe Doctrine)
(Calmly remind both the breakaways and the US that they are no longer under Spanish protection, and they would not be assisted by the crown from any foreign invasion)
(Or possible Portuguese alliance. Would possibly allow use of Portuguese ports on East Coast of Africa)
Establish land colony on African coast. (Possibly in Cameroon or Congo)
Reinforce Philippines. Start expanding into Borneo and south into New Guinea.
Start looking towards Arabia (particularly, Oman)


Of course, the problems here would give Spain a large presence in the East Indies, squat between Japan and Britain. Might be interesting to see an Anglo-Japanese alliance counteracted by a Spanish-American one. The trick is figuring out how to make all this happen. That's the only way I see a major colonial Spain still surviving.

The problem with New Spain is that, along with la Plata, were the first to rebel against Spanish control. Some of the most famous rebel leaders were from New Granada (Bolívar, Sucre...). So, if Spain is able to keep New Granada, they will surely be able to hold on to New Spain anda Perú. So, with the combined forces of New Spain, New Granada, Perú and mainland Spain, the US could be actually defeated. Anyways, I am writting a TL in which Spain gets to keep both New Spain and Perú, so of you are interested in a greater Spanish Empire in the XIX Century, check my TL.
 
What about dividing the Philippines into two - Nueva Ecija and the Philippines..but this requires an earlier POD..Nueva Ecija would function as the tabacco colony and have most of Luzon..
 
Simple. Keep Charles X for conquering Algeria, and I think that Spain may be the one to do so at a later point in time.
 

Dom

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The problem with New Spain is that, along with la Plata, were the first to rebel against Spanish control. Some of the most famous rebel leaders were from New Granada (Bolívar, Sucre...). So, if Spain is able to keep New Granada, they will surely be able to hold on to New Spain anda Perú. So, with the combined forces of New Spain, New Granada, Perú and mainland Spain, the US could be actually defeated. Anyways, I am writting a TL in which Spain gets to keep both New Spain and Perú, so of you are interested in a greater Spanish Empire in the XIX Century, check my TL.

You're fairly new here, but a friendly warning to not resurrect long dead threads. The forum even warns you that this is what you're doing.
 
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