How late is too late for Spain to reemerge as an Empire?

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The Spanish Empire may have been the world's first global empire, but by the 19th century it was collapsing in on itself. Spain had a bit of a comeback, nabbing a few colonies in Africa, but was largely excluded from the age of new imperialism. So how late is too late for Spain to get its act together and join in the various colonial scrambles of the 19th and 20th centuries? Bonus points if the POD occurs in the 19th century itself, but any input is appreciated.
 
The Spanish Empire may have been the world's first global empire, but by the 19th century it was collapsing in on itself. Spain had a bit of a comeback, nabbing a few colonies in Africa, but was largely excluded from the age of new imperialism. So how late is too late for Spain to get its act together and join in the various colonial scrambles of the 19th and 20th centuries? Bonus points if the POD occurs in the 19th century itself, but any input is appreciated.

What is your definition of an empire? Or a global empire?

Spain by common definition of a global empire was still a global empire until end of the OTL Spanish-American war in 1899.
 
What is your definition of an empire? Or a global empire?

Spain by common definition of a global empire was still a global empire until end of the OTL Spanish-American war in 1899.

I was thinking along the lines of Spain expanding its holdings in Africa and the Pacific instead of just clinging to the small bits they had like IOTL.
 
I was thinking along the lines of Spain expanding its holdings in Africa and the Pacific instead of just clinging to the small bits they had like IOTL.

Spain still had the third best navy in 1870s.

Spain also had the capability to field ww2 tech level submarines in 1880s while the rest of the world produced pre dread battleships. That itself could have propelled them to the dominance of the seas.
 
Spain still had the third best navy in 1870s.

Spain also had the capability to field ww2 tech level submarines in 1880s while the rest of the world produced pre dread battleships. That itself could have propelled them to the dominance of the seas.

This

If you can put the right PODs in place for Spain to win the Spanish American war or for there not to be one then you can use that to propel Spain forward

You can also have Spain be the ones to take over Morocco and then have a west African empire

One thing that you should Do is give Ferdinand VII a competent son
 
This

If you can put the right PODs in place for Spain to win the Spanish American war or for there not to be one then you can use that to propel Spain forward

You can also have Spain be the ones to take over Morocco and then have a west African empire

One thing that you should Do is give Ferdinand VII a competent son

If Spain acquires advances and competence, and If we are going to base on how Spain conquers historically, they always go for the wealthy natural resource. So middle east and more expansion in South east Asia comes into mind.

Taking Borneo would be viable. If The ottomans are still like OTL, it seems easy pickings to take OIL rich Ottoman middle east states for a Spain in steriods ATL.

Then, suddenly with all these new acquisitions, Suez Canal seems a strategic place to control for Spain.
 
I always find it interesting that Spain didn't expand its empire during the 19th century.

Much weaker Portugal was much more aggressive than Spain in the scramble for Africa, they sent out expeditions and staked claims to wherever they could. They Portuguese claimed the mouth to the Congo River and were the ones who called for the Berlin Conference, so they check other powers expansion. They even claimed what is now Zambia, Zimbabwe and Malawi and got the French and Germans agreed to this, but in the British didn't. They managed to make the Kingdom of Dahomey a protectorate in 1884, but traded this with the French for their recognising Portugal's pink map. In the end, they still managed to build an impressive empire of over 2 million square kilometres.

At the beginning of the 19th century in Angola, Portuguese control only extended perhaps 400 km inland and was confined to an area between the mouth of the Congo and Benguela to the south (around 250,000 sq km of territory). In Mozambique, Portuguese control was really only confined to small areas around the forts of Ibo, Moçambique, Quelimane, Sofala and Inhambane and up the the Zambezi River to Tete. Hold over Lourenço Marques (Maputo) wasn't even really re-established until the 1870s.

In Portuguese Guinea, only a few forts were in Bissau, Bolama, Cacheu and Ziguinchor (the latter traded with France in 1888 again for them recognising the "Pink Map"). Only in Portuguese Timor did the Portuguese recede when in 1854 the governor of Portuguese Timor sold Eastern Flores, Adonara, Pantar, Loblen, and Solor to the Dutch (without Lisbon's authorization).

As for the Netherlands, their rule in the East Indies was really only confirmed to Java, the Moluccas and bits of Sumatra and Borneo in 1815. They expanded their East Indies Empire to include all of modern Indonesia. However, the Dutch did sell their holdings in the Gold Coast (modern Ghana) and India to the British.

Finally, Belgium and Italy which were no stronger than Spain at the time of the Berlin Conference managed to acquire colonies in Africa as well.

Meanwhile Spain fought a war with Morocco in 1859-1860 and only took Sidi Ifni, even though they had occupied larger territory and won the war. At the Berlin conference they were able to get a strip of desert (Rio de Oro). Even in the Gulf of Guinea they only took tiny Rio Muni in 1900. They had a treay with Portugal granting them the territory between the Niger and Ogogué River, and never did anything with this, They could have easily staked a claim to this area in the 1870s or 1880s.
 
THE root of spains loss of the (american) colonial empire are probably Carlos III reforms - ans maybe even the fact that the first three (two if you don't count Louis) Bourbon Kings were not what you call strong and energetic.

Carlos III was a different kind of ruler - making reforms initially sterengthened Spain again. From there it went downhill with Spain. Carlos IV was weak and enabled the rise of ultra conservative elements.

The turmoil in Spain prevented a strong central government which ultimately led to the loss of most of Spanish america.

To prevent this you will have (probably) either get rid of the spanish Bourbons alltogether or make Carlos IV at least an average ruler (cutting ties with France early mighht help).
 
I always find it interesting that Spain didn't expand its empire during the 19th century.

Much weaker Portugal was much more aggressive than Spain in the scramble for Africa, they sent out expeditions and staked claims to wherever they could. They Portuguese claimed the mouth to the Congo River and were the ones who called for the Berlin Conference, so they check other powers expansion. They even claimed what is now Zambia, Zimbabwe and Malawi and got the French and Germans agreed to this, but in the British didn't. They managed to make the Kingdom of Dahomey a protectorate in 1884, but traded this with the French for their recognising Portugal's pink map. In the end, they still managed to build an impressive empire of over 2 million square kilometres.

At the beginning of the 19th century in Angola, Portuguese control only extended perhaps 400 km inland and was confined to an area between the mouth of the Congo and Benguela to the south (around 250,000 sq km of territory). In Mozambique, Portuguese control was really only confined to small areas around the forts of Ibo, Moçambique, Quelimane, Sofala and Inhambane and up the the Zambezi River to Tete. Hold over Lourenço Marques (Maputo) wasn't even really re-established until the 1870s.

In Portuguese Guinea, only a few forts were in Bissau, Bolama, Cacheu and Ziguinchor (the latter traded with France in 1888 again for them recognising the "Pink Map"). Only in Portuguese Timor did the Portuguese recede when in 1854 the governor of Portuguese Timor sold Eastern Flores, Adonara, Pantar, Loblen, and Solor to the Dutch (without Lisbon's authorization).

As for the Netherlands, their rule in the East Indies was really only confirmed to Java, the Moluccas and bits of Sumatra and Borneo in 1815. They expanded their East Indies Empire to include all of modern Indonesia. However, the Dutch did sell their holdings in the Gold Coast (modern Ghana) and India to the British.

Finally, Belgium and Italy which were no stronger than Spain at the time of the Berlin Conference managed to acquire colonies in Africa as well.

Meanwhile Spain fought a war with Morocco in 1859-1860 and only took Sidi Ifni, even though they had occupied larger territory and won the war. At the Berlin conference they were able to get a strip of desert (Rio de Oro). Even in the Gulf of Guinea they only took tiny Rio Muni in 1900. They had a treay with Portugal granting them the territory between the Niger and Ogogué River, and never did anything with this, They could have easily staked a claim to this area in the 1870s or 1880s.

Comparing Spain and Portugal, I have always though the same thing, but Spain was actually the busier power of the two and its endeavors were a lot more difficult as well. Take the Chincha islands war for example. That was a waste of money and lives just to make a vague and unnecessary point to Peru. And then there was the brutal insurgency in both Cuba and the Philippines, where the Spanish finally conquered the Moros in the South. It took a great deal of effort to defeat this. While Portugal already had territory on the coasts of Africa and had minimal resistance to inland expansion, the Spanish expedition to Morocco was a full-fledged invasion of an organized state. In addition to this, Spain had civil wars in the 19th century, which is obviously pretty disruptive. At least Belgium and Italy were on their way up and newly industrializing. They also didn't have any colonies to worry about at the time, let alone ones in sporadic rebellion like Spain's. Yes, Spain was clearly having a harder century than most (western) European nations. If Spain had not been busy with so many things, I am sure it could have expanded Rio Muni to several times its size (though it would have been expensive for minimal gain) and, perhaps, they might have gotten more of Morocco.
 
Richter,
Spain was in a no win situation with France. They weren't in the situation willingly. Cutting ties early simply means getting invaded earlier.

Perhaps they should have not initiated the War of the Pyrennees, the loss of which led directly to being under France's thumb. Doubt it really makes much difference. Spain was weak militarily at that time, and would have had to have bent over for France in any case. Pretending to be neutral, ala Portugal, would have eventually led to the same result.

As stated, having a weak Charles IV, followed up by a horrid Ferdinand, at a time of extreme turmoil was a perfect storm for disaster.
 
Spain also had the capability to field ww2 tech level submarines in 1880s

...Excuse me?

Anyway, finding a way to leverage their American empire into a working empire-scaled economy instead of hyperinflating with gold may have helped Spain become a more robust power in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Also never mind Charles III and IV, the real problem was II. Holy hell, those habsburgs need to cool it with the inbreeding :eek:
 
If Spain acquires advances and competence, and If we are going to base on how Spain conquers historically, they always go for the wealthy natural resource. So middle east and more expansion in South east Asia comes into mind. Taking Borneo would be viable
What about the scramble for China? Could Spain have carved out an area of influence in the Middle Kingdom?
 
...Excuse me?

The Peral Submarine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peral_Submarine

As far as I can tell the Peral submarine's performance wasn't equal to the WW1 submarines of either side let alone WW2 submarines. Still, it comes reasonably close to matching the performance of the first generation of submarines around 1900 and more than a decade earlier. So if Spain stuck with the project, by letting Peral choose the shipyard to build the follow on vessel, it could have a truly world-class submarine arm.
 
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...Excuse me?

Anyway, finding a way to leverage their American empire into a working empire-scaled economy instead of hyperinflating with gold may have helped Spain become a more robust power in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Also never mind Charles III and IV, the real problem was II. Holy hell, those habsburgs need to cool it with the inbreeding :eek:

I think you mean 'needed' rather than 'need'. But if you didn't intend that, what areas do the Hapsburgs control in your world?
 
'need' within the scope of an ATL with an earlier POD, in the early 17th Century or late 16th. You know, when their inbreeding actually matters.

I resent being brought to task over such petty things anyway :mad:; save it for actual or at least bigger screw-ups.

OT, regarding the Peral Sub: colour me unimpressed, especially by its speed.
 
Comparing Spain and Portugal, I have always though the same thing, but Spain was actually the busier power of the two and its endeavors were a lot more difficult as well. Take the Chincha islands war for example. That was a waste of money and lives just to make a vague and unnecessary point to Peru. And then there was the brutal insurgency in both Cuba and the Philippines, where the Spanish finally conquered the Moros in the South. It took a great deal of effort to defeat this. While Portugal already had territory on the coasts of Africa and had minimal resistance to inland expansion, the Spanish expedition to Morocco was a full-fledged invasion of an organized state. In addition to this, Spain had civil wars in the 19th century, which is obviously pretty disruptive. At least Belgium and Italy were on their way up and newly industrializing. They also didn't have any colonies to worry about at the time, let alone ones in sporadic rebellion like Spain's. Yes, Spain was clearly having a harder century than most (western) European nations. If Spain had not been busy with so many things, I am sure it could have expanded Rio Muni to several times its size (though it would have been expensive for minimal gain) and, perhaps, they might have gotten more of Morocco.

Comparing the two countries, it seems that throughout the 19th century there was a bitterness in the Spanish governments about the loss of the American colonies. There seemed to be hopes of Spain somehow reconquering its lost colonies until the 1830s, with a Spanish mission to reconquer Mexico in 1829 going badly. The Spanish took decades to even establish diplomatic relations with the new republics.

Date of Establishment of Diplomatic Relations with Spain
Mexico 1836
Ecuador 1840
Chile 1844
Venezuela 1845
Bolivia 1847 (ratified in Spain 1861)
Costa Rica 1850
Nicaragua 1850
Argentina 1863 (negotiations 1857, 1859)
Guatemala 1863
El Salvador 1865
Uruguay 1870 (agreements 1841,1846)
Peru 1879 (earlier agreement 1853)
Paraguay 1880
Colombia 1881

In Portugal, good relations with Brazil were fostered throughout the 19th century. A treaty in 1825 between the two countries recognised Brazil's independence and the two countries remained close, even after the 1889 declaration of the republic (minus an incident in 1894).

Also, in the Moroccan War of 1859-1860 Spain did surprisingly well, which is why I am surprised that they did not annex more territory. The French had already annexed Algeria.
 
'need' within the scope of an ATL with an earlier POD, in the early 17th Century or late 16th. You know, when their inbreeding actually matters.

I resent being brought to task over such petty things anyway :mad:; save it for actual or at least bigger screw-ups.

OT, regarding the Peral Sub: colour me unimpressed, especially by its speed.

The speed really isn't particularly bad, especially the surfaced speed. Submerged speed wasn't that much slower than the contemporary French experimental submarine Gymnote. And it's range is more than 6 times as large. Anyway if Spain stuck with it it's certainly an excellent base from which to develop better models.
 
Regarding submarines, Namayan was probably talking about the Ictíneo II, an experimental submarine invented by Narciso Monturiol in the 1860's and the first with an anaerobic engine, something tha wouldn't be used again until WWII.

We have a history with this things here, since that steam propelled ship invented in the late 1500's that never found support till the theoretical reaction propulsor designed by Virgilio Leret in the 1930's. This time there was official support and the tests were supossed to start in the summer of 1936. Then the deluge. Incidentally, Leret was the first political execution of the SCW. As commander of Melilla air base, he stayed loyal to the republic and was sent to the killed by shooting squad after the airmen's resistance crumbled..but I disgress.

The reasons I can think have been already more or less exposed. Internal conflicts and instability, the challenges already present to keep Cuba and the Filipines etc reduced the collective, economical and political will to expand further. When the forces to do that were present in the 1870's (after all the right time for colonial expansion) the existing colonies werr already in a serious state of opposition to spanishnrule and required attention. Once they were lost there was a drive towards expansion in northern Africa, but also the blow to national self-steem and international prestige had be
en hard enough to put Spain in a situation of weakness and "shyness" regarding colonial expansion and negotiations with other powers.

Oh, I forgot it. The Ictíneo II:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ictineo_II
 
You mean after the loss of most of the colonies in the Americas? Well, there was a TL here when I first registered that had Spain controlling Taiwan, more parts of Indonesia, the Dominican republic and Morocco, but nothing as far as the Middle Eastern conquests suggested in this thread. I can`t remember what the TL was called, though.
 
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