How late did France plan against the UK?

Hi all,

The UK has always been the great enemy of France.

Even in 1940, the high command preferred Germany to the UK.

So until when were they considered a serious enemy, with actual military planning?
 
Hi all,

The UK has always been the great enemy of France.

Even in 1940, the high command preferred Germany to the UK.

So until when were they considered a serious enemy, with actual military planning?

Where did you find this more than strange idea that in 1940 the french high command prefered Germany to the UK ?
 
Where did you find this more than strange idea that in 1940 the french high command prefered Germany to the UK ?
I thought it was a well known fact (I know those are dangerous) that they'd rather surrender to the Germans than trust the Franco-anglo union.
Even in post war, the situation was complicated diplomatically in SEA and the Levant
 
I thought it was a well known fact (I know those are dangerous) that they'd rather surrender to the Germans than trust the Franco-anglo union.
Even in post war, the situation was complicated diplomatically in SEA and the Levant
That's not the same as military planning against us.
 
I thought it was a well known fact (I know those are dangerous) that they'd rather surrender to the Germans than trust the Franco-anglo union.

Sorry to put it bluntly but are you kidding or do you really believe what you wrote ?

For each genious idea that Churchill had, he had 9 lunatic ideas that were nonsensical or would have turned into disasters if implemented.

The anglo-french union was nothing but one of those nonsensical ideas.

The fact is that indeed, in June and july 1940, the french command had many reasons to mistrust Britain.

As early as the 21st of may 1940, Lord Gort refused to engage the BEF in the counter-offensive that Weygand, the new french commander, wanted to launch in order to halt the german breakthrough.

Then at the Briare conference (june the 13th), Churchill refused to give the air support that was essential to have the least possibility to halt the german breakthrough.

And if you go back further to have the full picture, Britain under Mac Donald, Baldwin and Chamberlain did a lot, until Munich, to favour Germany's emerging again as a major military power.

So the reality is that France was almost certainly doomed as soon as she failed to reach an agreement with Stalin's USSR in order to deter and contain nazi Germany. One needs to realize that Germany's population in 1940 was twice as big as France's.
 
Sorry to put it bluntly but are you kidding or do you really believe what you wrote ?

For each genious idea that Churchill had, he had 9 lunatic ideas that were nonsensical or would have turned into disasters if implemented.

The anglo-french union was nothing but one of those nonsensical ideas.

The fact is that indeed, in June and july 1940, the french command had many reasons to mistrust Britain.

As early as the 21st of may 1940, Lord Gort refused to engage the BEF in the counter-offensive that Weygand, the new french commander, wanted to launch in order to halt the german breakthrough.

Then at the Briare conference (june the 13th), Churchill refused to give the air support that was essential to have the least possibility to halt the german breakthrough.

And if you go back further to have the full picture, Britain under Mac Donald, Baldwin and Chamberlain did a lot, until Munich, to favour Germany's emerging again as a major military power.

So the reality is that France was almost certainly doomed as soon as she failed to reach an agreement with Stalin's USSR in order to deter and contain nazi Germany. One needs to realize that Germany's population in 1940 was twice as big as France's.
You know I educate for a living. I've never found that scorn aided in the endeavour. Both Britain and France were guilty of appeasement. I don't agree about the inevitability of French defeat. By no means unlikely perhaps, but not inevitable or even almost.
 
Hi all,

The UK has always been the great enemy of France.

The UK did not exist before 1707.

The UK, and before that, England, were allied with France against the Dutch in
the 1660s, allied with France against Spain around 1720 (a very minor and
desultory war), allied with France against Turkey during the Greek Revolution,
allied with France against Russia in 1854, and allied with France against China
in 1860.

Even in 1940, the high command preferred Germany to the UK./QUOTE]

Rubbish which has been addressed by others.

So until when were they considered a serious enemy, with actual military planning?

As late as the early 1900s. There was a serious confrontation between France and Britain at Fashoda in the Sudan, which might have blown up into war. However, within a few years, common distrust of Germany pushed the UK and France into a tacit alliance. This was greatly facilitated by a state visit of Edward VII to France, in which he made himself popular with the French public. IIRC that was in 1903.

It's possible that Vichy France actually made some plans for military action against Britain. AFAIK, resistance to British and other Allied incursions into French colonies was managed by each colonial government, i.e. there was no "planning"; but I have no information. After Mers-el-Kébir, Vichy forces made one ineffective air raid against Gibraltar, which I suppose had to be "planned"; that would seem to be the latest date, if one counts the Vichy government as "France".
 
You know I educate for a living. I've never found that scorn aided in the endeavour. Both Britain and France were guilty of appeasement. I don't agree about the inevitability of French defeat. By no means unlikely perhaps, but not inevitable or even almost.

Yes, I know. But in a historical discussion, the prerequisite is to make a little research before doubling down on caricaturally down assertions.

I said France was almost certainly doomed. In the wargames the french command organized before the war, the side playing the french lost against the side playing the germans. Many officers knew and were pessimistic.

Sure, with extreme luck, the french could not have lost. But they had no such luck, made strategically disastrous decisions (going on the offensive in Belgium with an army that had been built for defence while having not enough reserves on the second line). And the germans enjoyed such an operative and tactical superiority that it was quite the perfect storm.

France did not enjoy the strategic depth of the USSR. And without its strategic depth, the USSR would have been defeated too.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
So the reality is that France was almost certainly doomed as soon as she failed to reach an agreement with Stalin's USSR in order to deter and contain nazi Germany. One needs to realize that Germany's population in 1940 was twice as big as France's.
Wasn't France's military superior to Germany's military in 1940, though?
 
The French plotted against the British openly until the signing of the Entente in 1904. Then they did quietly until around 1908. They take a brake while they focus on the Germans. After Germany loses WWI, they start thinking of fighting the British again but the Germans rearmed and ended the fun
 
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Glory-France’s-Britain-1945-2016/dp/1785901168

According to this book the French never stopped-it details covert wars and French action agains the Brits and Americans

What I found interesting was the Biafran situation-a direct Anglo-French proxy war in the 1960s.
Well yeah this sort of things alway happen britain did the same country are always make a bunch of invasion plan and contingency in case of war or other tense situation.
 
Sorry to put it bluntly but are you kidding or do you really believe what you wrote ?
I heard it in "Autant en Emporte l'Histoire" on France Inter. But the point is not that as much as the general question. We know there is an enimity between the countries and I would imagine current war plan for/against an invasion from/to the UK don't get the same attention as, say, against Russia. The question is did that stop? when did that stop?

The UK did not exist before 1707.

The UK, and before that, England, were allied with France against the Dutch in
the 1660s, allied with France against Spain around 1720 (a very minor and
desultory war), allied with France against Turkey during the Greek Revolution,
allied with France against Russia in 1854, and allied with France against China
in 1860.
Sure, if you wanna go semantic, but the UK is certainly centered against England, with most of the power, wealth and population in England.
And before the act of Union, you cannot deny there had been tensions between England/Duchy of Normandy and France.
Plus, it's not the point of the question.
 
Top