How large were armies in the Trinh-Nguyen wars?

Best I can find is 180.000 for the Trinhs and 160.000 for the N'Guyen in 1672. However, that source admits he's not sure, the Trinh could have had as low as 70.000 with the N'Guyen at 216.000.

Source

It's a decent source which I would generally trust. You'd also have to account for the artillery imbalance and the N'Guyen defensive line. Since the N'Guyen had Faifo, and Joao de la Cruz, they had some good cannons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_of_the_Nguyễn_lords

If you want I can do further readings? My main source is in French so... Those numbers might be slighty too high if you ask me, although for an ultimate-death-match-that-will-decide-the-fate-of-mankind it's not completely unrealistic
 
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Thank you, and btw I speak French ;)

I agree it looks unrealistic. I did some more research by my own in the meantime, and the Cambridge History of Southeast Asia says "the Nguyen army was tallied at 22,740 men," although it doesn't say when it exactly (it also supports your second stat for the Trinh armies, saying they had between 70,000 and 80,000 troops - still a bit weird since the Nguyen would have been outnumbered by the Trinh more than three times, but I guess that's the power of artillery). Wasn't the Nguyen part of Vietnam pretty underpopulated too compared to the Red River area?

I'm trying to see how well the Nguyen fare against the Qing army. I know the Europeans praised Nguyen artillery, but how good actually was it compared to European cannons (ie was it superior)? What about their navy - did it have any European-style ships?
 
If you speak French, allow me to do an absolutely shameless plug on a project I started recently :D

The estimate from the Cambridge history seems to be from after the war, in a relatively peaceful period while mine is at the end of the first civil war, so there's a chance we're both right.

I found another source (Au coeur d'une rencontre by Jean le Pichon, quite a nice read) stating that in 1660, a Jesuit was at a grand parade in Hanoi where all the Trinh army was there. According to this, there were 40.000 soldiers, 3000 horses and 300 elephants.
In 1672, I find an estimate of 100.000 for an invasion force of the Trinh.

Regarding the artillery, the N'Guyen had Joao da Cruz, a metiss, who arrived sometime during the war and started a foundry. On the other hand, the Trinh were reliant on imports, restricting their supply by a lot.
On top of that, the N'Guyen had built a wall at Dong Hoi, on which the Trinh crashed and burned many times. It was very efficient as it's a short wall, I remember reading the mountain range goes within 20km of the sea.

Regarding the ships, I only see mentions of junks. AFAIK, only Oman got a decent navy in the indian ocean before the XXth century but I might be wrong
 
In 1750 the Nguyen had 1,200 cannons. This is absolutely incredible. Assuming the Cambridge estimate works for this period, would be 54.5 cannons per 1000 men, which is far higher than Qing banner armies (even in important campaigns only 3.8 cannons per 1000 men) but also European forces. In the Battle of Minden in 1759, the Allies had 4.9 cannons per 1000 men and the French, 3.7 cannons per 1000 men.

Of course by 1750 the Nguyen artillery was not particularly effective. But even if they only had 600 cannons in the late 17th century and an army of 100,000 soldiers (very implausible imo) this still means a ratio of 6 cannons per 1000 men. As I just said, this is spectacularly high.
 
Well I don't have population estimate but a 100.000 soldiers army does not seem really out of line to me, especially if many are conscripts. These are populous areas.

Sure, the Hanoi delta has more carrying capacity in term of population but they also had to deal with the Chinese and the Mac who were actual adversaries, while the N'Guyen encroachment in the South seemed less taxing.

And sure that's a lot of cannons, but you can see it like the Maginot line of the French, compensate the lack of men with tons of cannons. Then maybe a lot of it was for show but it may just be that a lot of the artillery was handheld, couleuvrines type of cannons?

The would count as cannons but not as imagined in modern era European armies. Maybe it also counts the cannons on ships? You can also add the fact that cannons were a huge prestige thing in the region.

You add everything, you can get to 1200 cannons, especially if not all is actually usable but still stored.

I'll be able to help more in a couple weeks, thanks to your link, I actually ordered the Cambridge history yesterday. Got it for 10€ second hand, delivery included!
 
Finally found Cambridge's source, a 1920 book titled Histoire Moderne du Pays d'Annam. About the army size, here is what it says:

Au point de vue de l'importance des troupes réunies pour une expédition, on voit par les Historiographies (liv. IV, p. 4,5) qu'en 1653 une grande revue fut passée près de Hué par Hién Vuong qui allait attaquer le Champa; avec l'infanterie de la garde (3 280 hommes) et la marine de la garde (6 410), les troupes passées en revue formaient un total de 22 740 hommes.

So this puts more context into it, it's a large army that was going to attack Champa. I tried to find out what this was in the article "The Nguyen and Champa during 17th and 18th century." Apparently the new king of Champa, Po Nraup, attempted to reconquer Phu Yen and was annihilated.
 
Finally found Cambridge's source, a 1920 book titled Histoire Moderne du Pays d'Annam. About the army size, here is what it says:

So this puts more context into it, it's a large army that was going to attack Champa. I tried to find out what this was in the article "The Nguyen and Champa during 17th and 18th century." Apparently the new king of Champa, Po Nraup, attempted to reconquer Phu Yen and was annihilated.

Thank God for Gallica :D

The Champa were the Viets punching ball from 1375 onward. Funny though, I thought Champa was destroyed in the 1470's. I didn't know it re-emerged later. Then to be fair I'm trying to go chronologically from 1400 in my Vietnamese history. I have notions thanks to the Pichon book (which I strongly recommend) and wikipedia but I'm still in the late XVth century these days.

Regarding the quote, would the N'Guyen field armies of the same size when they go mop up the Champa than when they fight for survival against the Trinh? Especially in the later years of the war?

On one side, you get a semi-elite force to go get some booty against a centuries-long nuisance, on the other you try not get killed, your family killed and your field salted... I would think civil war battles would get more men, including conscript. They were after all going with the "pacify the South to conquer the North" tactic, which sets their priorities straight. On top of the priorities, the use of the term "pacify" is telling. You don't pacify a life-long ennemy, you pacify your inferiors/vassals/colonial subjects.

And btw I'm really enjoying this discussion.

Indeed. This era is completely forgotten. Then to be fair, Vietnamese history in the period had little impact on the rest of the world. The maritime routes could bypass it completely and it didn't have major exports. So basically, you only get Vietnamese and Francophile nerds interested in it.
 
Coming back to this.

What tangible (ie no "better generals") advantages did the Nguyen have over the Trinh? So far I have:
  • Fortification system
  • Artillery
  • More elephants
  • Being on defensive
Anything else?
 
Coming back to this.

What tangible (ie no "better generals") advantages did the Nguyen have over the Trinh? So far I have:
  • Fortification system
  • Artillery
  • More elephants
  • Being on defensive
Anything else?
No looming threat of the Chinese-backed Mac did help as well but that's already a lot. I mean, the defensive advantage is not like a war in Europe: the front line in Vietnam is TINY. Seriously, the fortification system was like 20km wide!

That's a great way to multiply your multiplicator and more or less nullify the adversary's numerical advantage
 
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