How is this World War II scenario?

Warsie

Banned
I have the Czechs be fully germanized to the point that they are no different than the Dutch.

Germany wins WWI, gets the Netherlands to join Germany as well as the Czechs, German Swiss and Austrians. The Germans are ethnically cleansing Poles from border regions by deporting them and whatnot. General German abuses against Poles, but not OTL nazism per se (how can I get this victorious germany to go Nazi? does the Depression work enough to bring that?). Germans are allowed to pull their Mittelafrika abuses. Maybe the east indies are transferred for some african colonies (meaning Japan can still come into the field as a German Ally)

The Soviet Union controls Iran, Parts of Kurdistan, Afghanistan and Balochistan + Parts of Pakistan in this timeline.

Italy was neutral in WWI.

Britain and France were made to pay some reparations, and France has a revivalism of Occitan and other non-french languages. France is pretty pissed at Germany.

The US was neutral in WWI and has no ill feelings towards Germany..

Turkey controls the Kurdish regions it had OTL + Iraqi ans Syrian Kurdistan, maybe a little going into Iranian Kurdistan from OTL?)

I was thinking the French and British link up with the USSR due to their anger (especially French anger) against Germany. German abuses against Poles prompt a war against USSR, France and Britain (France goes down, Spain is conquered [OTL Spain has the leftists win the civil war] and the Germans keep a low-conflict front against the Soviet Union until something like OTL Barbarossa happens), but it could be anything else. Other than this, OTL Eurasia is the same.

Have any ideas on how to make WWII happen here, and make it VIOLENT? I still want a 'Great Patriotic War' analogue, with Turkey going for Azerbaijan and Soibet Turkic Central Asia

EDIT: heres a interim quote

German abuses and Savagery against the Polish people are not forgotten; the Poles conduct many Silesian uprisings against the German occupiers. The Haitians (Haiti controls all of Hispanola ITL) also send aid and assistance against the German depredations in Black Africa. The Dutch, Czechs and Austrians counterbalance the Prussian sense of expansionism in the Reichstag, partially out of humanistic values and partly out of realizing that Germany’s actions are pissing off other countries, specifically the massive Eurasian power to Germany’s East, which is industrializing and re-growing from the near-shattering experiences in its’ first war (the Soviet Union). Polish insurgents have historically used the Soviet Union as a place to re-arm, train and harass the German Reich, with the Soviet Union supporting these actions. Turkey, revamped from the first war has goals on Greece and Soviet Armenia, Azerbaijan and Central Asia – and wishing to conquer and Turkify all of Kurdistan. The German Reich wants more room to expand in the East, something the Soviets refuse to allow. Imperial Japan, angry at the colonialism the white man has forced upon fellow asians as well as the savage racism of the white peoples expands its’ military and prepares to liberate their fellow asians from the white mans’ imperialism, willing to go against the powers of Germany, Britain and France for their beliefs. The Chinese, fractured, torn by warlordism, and long humiliated by the white man also has aims of reunification and revenge, aided by the Soviet Union.
 
Last edited:
I have the Czechs be fully germanized to the point that they are no different than the Dutch.

Germany wins WWI, gets the Netherlands to join Germany as well as the Czechs, German Swiss and Austrians. The Germans are ethnically cleansing Poles from border regions by deporting them and whatnot. General German abuses against Poles, but not OTL nazism per se (how can I get this victorious germany to go Nazi? does the Depression work enough to bring that?). Germans are allowed to pull their Mittelafrika abuses. Maybe the east indies are transferred for some african colonies (meaning Japan can still come into the field as a German Ally)

The Soviet Union controls Iran, Parts of Kurdistan, Afghanistan and Balochistan + Parts of Pakistan in this timeline.

Italy was neutral in WWI.

Britain and France were made to pay some reparations, and France has a revivalism of Occitan and other non-french languages. France is pretty pissed at Germany.

The US was neutral in WWI and has no ill feelings towards Germany..

Turkey controls the Kurdish regions it had OTL + Iraqi ans Syrian Kurdistan, maybe a little going into Iranian Kurdistan from OTL?)

I was thinking the French and British link up with the USSR due to their anger (especially French anger) against Germany. German abuses against Poles prompt a war against USSR, France and Britain (France goes down, Spain is conquered [OTL Spain has the leftists win the civil war] and the Germans keep a low-conflict front against the Soviet Union until something like OTL Barbarossa happens), but it could be anything else. Other than this, OTL Eurasia is the same.

Have any ideas on how to make WWII happen here, and make it VIOLENT? I still want a 'Great Patriotic War' analogue, with Turkey going for Azerbaijan and Soibet Turkic Central Asia

EDIT: heres a interim quote
So the Germans attack both the Netherlands and Switserland during WWI and manage to do so well in that war they are allowed to annex them afterwards? So what happens to Belgium? Is it annexed too? In both cases I wonder what happens to the colonies. Are they turned into a Belgian and Dutch government in exile? I realy doubt the Germans would be able to get them as they would never be able to come near those places. In theory I could see Britain and France keeping them, but it seems rather unlikely to me. I am fairly certain the Dutch and Belgians would feel realy betrayed by the entente and if they are liberated after world war I, I don't think they would be friendly towards them after the war. Maybe we would get a soviet aligned benelux (assuming the allies win WWII).

Also the Germans need a realy quick victory for them to win, as invading two extra neutral countries, would drain a lot of resources from them, certainly occupying Switserland would be hard and it won't be easy to capture all of the Netherlands, as I believe the waterline would be a formidable defense, certainly during WWI. Also invading (and later even annexing them) 2 other neutral countries would cause a lot of bad blood around the world. I realy doubt the USA would look favourable to this Germany. I think you will only increase American involvement this way.

Anyway, the German gains are far too high, certainly for a small limited war. If the central powers win WWI, I think they wouldn't annex all of the Netherlands, Belgium and (german speaking) Switserland. It is likely they annex only part of it, like Dutch Limburg (which had been part of the German Confederation) and Belgian Luxemburg, certainly not all of it.
 
The Soviet Union controls Iran, Parts of Kurdistan, Afghanistan and Balochistan + Parts of Pakistan in this timeline.

Italy was neutral in WWI.

How did this come to pass? Especially problematic since you want USSR allied later to British. I fail to see how would those things reconcile. It would lead to
revival of The Great Game rather than alliance between the two. Italy to be neutral, would mean Germans win BIG before 1915.

IMHO, greatly diminished Russia would be the result of a such a victorious war. Also, what about A-H? Did it survive? Consider making Britain more isolationist ITTL. They could decide they had enough of the continent and would react only to their direct interests being threatened. Involve USA in Far East and make it something of a threeway (or fourway, if you include UK) just to make it more interesting.
 

Warsie

Banned
So the Germans attack both the Netherlands and Switserland during WWI and manage to do so well in that war they are allowed to annex them afterwards?

No, the annexation happens after the war ends. The German government pressures them to join Germany. not conquers them. Switzerland is destabilized by the War and Germany enflames German sentiments in German Switzerland, prompting them to join later.

So what happens to Belgium? Is it annexed too? In both cases I wonder what happens to the colonies.

Unified Germany gets controls of the colonies, given Germany won WWI. German Papua joins Dutch East Indies.

I realy doubt the Germans would be able to get them as they would never be able to come near those places.

Germany gets this by appealing to pangermanic sentiment and bribing and pressuring the Netherlands to join for various reasons, im not sure which ones woul work for them yet. have any ideas?

I realy doubt the USA would look favourable to this Germany. I think you will only increase American involvement this way.

The US is busy dealing with Canada, as Britain has more civil strife than OTL and the Canadians break off, and lean towards allying with the US or being annexed by them ITTL.

Anyway, the German gains are far too high, certainly for a small limited war. If the central powers win WWI, I think they wouldn't annex all of the Netherlands, Belgium and (german speaking) Switserland. It is likely they annex only part of it, like Dutch Limburg (which had been part of the German Confederation) and Belgian Luxemburg, certainly not all of it.

How can you make this plausible, how far back wil you need the timeline to go for a pan-germanic confederation + czechs?

How did this come to pass? Especially problematic since you want USSR allied later to British. I fail to see how would those things reconcile. It would lead to
revival of The Great Game rather than alliance between the two.

Tsarist Russia 'won' the Great Game ITTL, at the cost of not advancing as much into Ukraine and Belarus meaning they have a stronger separate identity.

Italy to be neutral, would mean Germans win BIG before 1915.

Okay. Italy joins the war as an ally IOTL, at least for 'pulling' Italian Switzerland

IMHO, greatly diminished Russia would be the result of a such a victorious war.

The Eastern Front collapses as according to OTL, but we could have a suppressed Poland and Ukriane/Belarus meaning slavic insurgencies against Germany being a reason for the next war. Though I think reconstituted Poland will be a bit hard to roll over, there will be a rump Poland the Soviets will probably aid.

Also, what about A-H? Did it survive?

No, it collapsed as OTL.

Involve USA in Far East and make it something of a threeway (or fourway, if you include UK) just to make it more interesting.

Im thinking of having the USA get lured into Japan's wars against China and whatnot just as OTL yes

If the Czechs are germanissed that itself already raises a whole slew of butterflies.

how so?
 

iddt3

Donor
Well four centuries of Hapsburg rule didn't do it to them and now you want it to happen in 20 years? The faster Germany wins, the more the status quo is preserved. The reason empires got dismembered after WWII was because the war aims had to ramp up to justify the costs, and the empires themselves were badly weakened.
 
Last edited:
No, the annexation happens after the war ends. The German government pressures them to join Germany. not conquers them. Switzerland is destabilized by the War and Germany enflames German sentiments in German Switzerland, prompting them to join later.
In that case it is impossible. There is no way the Netherlands or Switserland would willingly join Germany in 1918. For the Netherlands you need a POD at least as far back as 1815, probably as early as the 16th-17th century. For the German speaking Swiss even earlier. Both had developed an non-German national identity. Both did not consider themselves German and would hae fought a war to keep their independence.

Because there were far too many people speaking Czech to be Germanised in so short a time. You probably need more than a century to achieve it, assuming it is even posible in a country with so many different nationalities as Austro-Hungary.
 
No, it collapsed as OTL.

If A-H collapsed, then you will have a bunch of opportunities for a war in Europe to start with the countries in Balkans and South East Europe and their constant struggles and shifting alliances. Rather go down that route, than the German more or less improbable savagery in its eastern provinces.
 

Cook

Banned
The Soviet Union controls Iran, Parts of Kurdistan, Afghanistan and Balochistan + Parts of Pakistan in this timeline.
Having the Soviet Union present requires a late war victory and an analogue of the Treaty of Brest-Litvosk; such a situation would see the Soviet Union crippled and much of the former Tsarist Empire occupied as a new German Empire consisting of German satellite states in the Baltic, Ukraine and Georgia. The territories you mention as being under Soviet control were all part of the war aims of the Ottoman Empire; a Central Powers victory would have seen the Ottomans politicly dominating neighbouring Persia and expelling the British and claiming extensive tracts of Tsarist Central Asia as their new Turkic Empire.
Britain and France were made to pay some reparations, and France has a revivalism of Occitan and other non-french languages. France is pretty pissed at Germany.
Some’ reparations would have been putting it mildly. The German war aim was to put off the threat posed by France for at least fifty years if not indefinitely. The longer the war went on the more crippling the territorial losses and war reparations inflicted on France would have to be simply for Germany to pay for the war; unlike the allies the Germans hadn’t taken out loans to pay for the war, they’d issued war bonds that would have required massive amounts of French, Belgian and English gold simply to pay off. Add to that the German experience with imposing war reparations on the French in 1871; the reparations imposed by Germany then were meant to leave France financially crippled for at least a generation, instead the French through an enormous national effort payed off the entire amount in a few short years. So reparations following a French defeat in World War One would have been absolutely enormous. All French territory north of the some would probably have been incorporated into the German Empire as well along with Belgium and Luxemburg.
Okay. Italy joins the war as an ally IOTL, at least for 'pulling' Italian Switzerland
Actually your initial proposal of having Italy remain neutral isn’t unlikely, the British and French offered the world to Italy in the Treaty of London and significantly over-sold their position on the western front. A more cautious and pragmatic Italian government may have opted to remain neutral and not signed the treaty in London or signed on the proviso of the situation improving significantly, something that wouldn’t have happened.
The US was neutral in WWI and has no ill feelings towards Germany..
The US made a huge number of loans to the Allies during the war, in a Central Powers victory these would never get payed off so there is likely to be some resentment there.
 

Warsie

Banned

Having the Soviet Union present requires a late war victory and an analogue of the Treaty of Brest-Litvosk; such a situation would see the Soviet Union crippled and much of the former Tsarist Empire occupied as a new German Empire consisting of German satellite states in the Baltic, Ukraine and Georgia. The territories you mention as being under Soviet control were all part of the war aims of the Ottoman Empire; a Central Powers victory would have seen the Ottomans politicly dominating neighbouring Persia and expelling the British and claiming extensive tracts of Tsarist Central Asia as their new Turkic Empire.

Well even in OTL where the Central Powers were basically allowed to take control of those territories, they escaped their grasp due to local nationalists and partisan bands who refused to turn over control. I'd expect the same thing to happen here, the areas the Germans try to take over aren't allowed by the people living there to become part of Germany. Ditto for the people in Persia.

OTL Ottoman ambitions failed in Central Asia even when the russian units int he caucauses were disorganized as hack and collapsed,
I doubt Enver Pasha and his friends will be able to get into Ventral Asia and do more than OTL. Also remember, the Ottoman Empire collapses to OTL Turkey + northern Iraqi Kurdistan and some parts of Persian Kurdistan)


Some’ reparations would have been putting it mildly. The German war aim was to put off the threat posed by France for at least fifty years if not indefinitely. The longer the war went on the more crippling the territorial losses and war reparations inflicted on France would have to be simply for Germany to pay for the war; unlike the allies the Germans hadn’t taken out loans to pay for the war, they’d issued war bonds that would have required massive amounts of French, Belgian and English gold simply to pay off. Add to that the German experience with imposing war reparations on the French in 1871; the reparations imposed by Germany then were meant to leave France financially crippled for at least a generation, instead the French through an enormous national effort payed off the entire amount in a few short years. So reparations following a French defeat in World War One would have been absolutely enormous. All French territory north of the some would probably have been incorporated into the German Empire as well along with Belgium and Luxemburg.

Damn. How would a 'draw' from victorious Germany result then, Germany gets to annex Dutch Belgium, Luxembourg and there is no reparation?


Actually your initial proposal of having Italy remain neutral isn’t unlikely, the British and French offered the world to Italy in the Treaty of London and significantly over-sold their position on the western front. A more cautious and pragmatic Italian government may have opted to remain neutral and not signed the treaty in London or signed on the proviso of the situation improving significantly, something that wouldn’t have happened.

Okay.

The US made a huge number of loans to the Allies during the war, in a Central Powers victory these would never get payed off so there is likely to be some resentment there.
[/quote]

How would they blame Germany? It's not like the Germans are defaulting, seems a bit odd...and vindictive.

I can butterfly them away, from the Trent Affair getting more violent, to something else entirely.

Anyway, didn't the US (well international) banks basically loan to EVERYONE in World War I and make a lot of profit off of it? I doubt the US banking establishment will be that butthurt over that.

Well four centuries of Hapsburg rule didn't do it to them and now you want it to happen in 20 years? The faster Germany wins, the more the status quo is preserved. The reason empires got dismembered after WWII was because the war aims had to ramp up to justify the costs, and the epires themselves were badly weakened.

Okay, how can you butterfly a weakened switzerland and/or stronger pan-german sentiments in netherlands and german switzerland?

In that case it is impossible. There is no way the Netherlands or Switserland would willingly join Germany in 1918. For the Netherlands you need a POD at least as far back as 1815, probably as early as the 16th-17th century. For the German speaking Swiss even earlier. Both had developed an non-German national identity. Both did not consider themselves German and would hae fought a war to keep their independence.

Okay, how would you do the POD?

Because there were far too many people speaking Czech to be Germanised in so short a time. You probably need more than a century to achieve it, assuming it is even posible in a country with so many different nationalities as Austro-Hungary.

AFAIK Czechs are germanized slavs, how were they not fuully germanized?

If A-H collapsed, then you will have a bunch of opportunities for a war in Europe to start with the countries in Balkans and South East Europe and their constant struggles and shifting alliances. Rather go down that route, than the German more or less improbable savagery in its eastern provinces.

Wasn't the Germans going to ethnically cleanse Polish regions on the eastern border if they won WWI in their 'drang nacht ost' tendencies, albeit in a much nicer and gentler way than they did in WWII?
 
Okay, how would you do the POD?

What kind of POD would you want? Just a POD that would include the Netherlands and Switserland within Germany? Or one that would make the Netherlands ans Switserland willingly join Germany?

For both you realy need to change history, a lot. You could have Germany conquer the Netherlands during the 19th century. Although that would need a very different diplomatic policy of Germany/Prussia during the 19th century. The Netherlands had pretty good relations with their German neighbours. Their royal families were intermarried for example(and no, a personal union is not an easy way out, as it would not unify the Netherlands with one of the German countries). Even if Germany got into a war with the Netherlands, it would most likely only annex part of the Netherlands (Limburg and Luxemburg), just like it did with Denmark. Annexing whole nations (certainly nations like the Netherlands), isn't something usually done. My best guess would be either a very different Napoleonic wars after which the Netherlands isn't restored for some reason (because the house of Orange coöperated with the French or something like that) or a POD in 18th century or earlier. Both would create a very different Europe and Germany, unrecognisable from the OTL 20th century.

If you want the Netherlands willingly join Germany? Well, I would realy like to say impossible. Of course it isn't impossible, but you would need a POD around the 16th century (like the Netherlands loses its war of independence against Spain, or isn't unified at all, or remains Burgundian, etc.). This, as you can, imagine would change European history drastically. Would Germany even unite in such a case? Without a rich Netherlands France might be able to get its Rhine border (or even cross it as it was merely a pretxt for expansion). Without the Dutch maybe the 30-year is so different from OTL that is causes a unrepairable split between catholic and protestant Germany.

Anyway in both cases you get a Netherlands that is far, far less strong as it was OTL. You don't need to worry about colonies as they would have ended up in someone elses hands earlier (assuming the Dutch would have been able to gain any at all). But the problem remains that European history would be drastically different and OTL WWI and WWII would be butterflied away or unrecognisable to our eyes.

Although I know less about Swiss history than Dutch history, I think a comparable post could be made about German speaking Switserland becomin part of Germany.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I have the Czechs be fully germanized to the point that they are no different than the Dutch.
This POD is absolutely impossible post-1900 and butterflies everything. Austro-Hungarian stability, Pan-Slavism, Pan-Germanism, and a shit-ton of other butterflies.
Germany wins WWI, gets the Netherlands to join Germany as well as the Czechs, German Swiss and Austrians.
So we're also butterflying away Dutch, Swiss, and Austrian nationalism. Again, this changes everything and requires PODs centuries in the making.
how can I get this victorious germany to go Nazi? does the Depression work enough to bring that?).
A German victory in WWI means no Nazis. Full stop.
Maybe the east indies are transferred for some african colonies (meaning Japan can still come into the field as a German Ally)
Why would Japan bother helping Germany? A victorious Kaiserreich will barely be able to project power in Africa, to say nothing of the German territories in Asia that Japan easily gobbled up.
The Soviet Union controls Iran, Parts of Kurdistan, Afghanistan and Balochistan + Parts of Pakistan in this timeline.
What the shit? The Soviets were never in a position to do this, especially not pre-War. Britain is going to fight much harder to keep commissars out of Kabul than they did to keep the Germans out of Paris.
Britain and France were made to pay some reparations, and France has a revivalism of Occitan and other non-french languages.
Why? For shits and giggles? Because any revanchist regime that comes to power in France is going to put a stop to that pretty damn quick.
I was thinking the French and British link up with the USSR due to their anger (especially French anger) against Germany. German abuses against Poles prompt a war against USSR, France and Britain (France goes down, Spain is conquered [OTL Spain has the leftists win the civil war] and the Germans keep a low-conflict front against the Soviet Union until something like OTL Barbarossa happens), but it could be anything else. Other than this, OTL Eurasia is the same.
No. Just...no.
I still want a 'Great Patriotic War' analogue, with Turkey going for Azerbaijan and Soibet Turkic Central Asia
A surviving Ottoman Empire that emerged on the winning side of WWI will control the Caucasus post-War. Turkestan is a whole 'nother problem whose susceptibility to Ottoman conquest is dubious at best.
 
The US is busy dealing with Canada, as Britain has more civil strife than OTL and the Canadians break off, and lean towards allying with the US or being annexed by them ITTL.
You are dreaming.:rolleyes: "Break off"? Not like Canada was Ulster to begin with. "Being annexed"? That's an American fantasy, not a realistic prospect.
 

Warsie

Banned
You are dreaming.:rolleyes: "Break off"? Not like Canada was Ulster to begin with. "Being annexed"? That's an American fantasy, not a realistic prospect.

It's going to be Ameriwank, be warned ;)

What kind of POD would you want? Just a POD that would include the Netherlands and Switserland within Germany? Or one that would make the Netherlands ans Switserland willingly join Germany?

Ideally they join up the in the same process that formed the German Empire, e.g. diplomacy, was, etc etc. Basically I want Bismark to be able to do it in that manner.

For both you realy need to change history, a lot. You could have Germany conquer the Netherlands during the 19th century. Although that would need a very different diplomatic policy of Germany/Prussia during the 19th century. The Netherlands had pretty good relations with their German neighbours. Their royal families were intermarried for example(and no, a personal union is not an easy way out, as it would not unify the Netherlands with one of the German countries). Even if Germany got into a war with the Netherlands, it would most likely only annex part of the Netherlands (Limburg and Luxemburg), just like it did with Denmark. Annexing whole nations (certainly nations like the Netherlands), isn't something usually done.

When I say 'annex' I mean get them into a german confederation, not full- on conquer them. I want them at least to join the North German Confederation. I know I can butterfly/increase there to be a vague sense of pan-germanism the dutch have, stronger to perhaps how the austrians felt OTL.

My best guess would be either a very different Napoleonic wars after which the Netherlands isn't restored for some reason (because the house of Orange coöperated with the French or something like that) or a POD in 18th century or earlier. Both would create a very different Europe and Germany, unrecognisable from the OTL 20th century.

Can you please give a short list of how different things would be?

Anyway in both cases you get a Netherlands that is far, far less strong as it was OTL. You don't need to worry about colonies as they would have ended up in someone elses hands earlier (assuming the Dutch would have been able to gain any at all). But the problem remains that European history would be drastically different and OTL WWI and WWII would be butterflied away or unrecognisable to our eyes.

Although I know less about Swiss history than Dutch history, I think a comparable post could be made about German speaking Switserland becomin part of Germany.

Okay.

This POD is absolutely impossible post-1900 and butterflies everything. Austro-Hungarian stability, Pan-Slavism, Pan-Germanism, and a shit-ton of other butterflies.

Actually my timeline has a PO earlier, in the 1700s. The Haitian Revolution succeedes and controls all of Hispanola is the original POD.

So we're also butterflying away Dutch, Swiss, and Austrian nationalism. Again, this changes everything and requires PODs centuries in the making.


Okay, can you give some examples? I know I am not phrasing everything/telling "the whole story" - I am still in the stage of setting up a TL and basic things.

A German victory in WWI means no Nazis. Full stop.
Why would Japan bother helping Germany? A victorious Kaiserreich will barely be able to project power in Africa, to say nothing of the German territories in Asia that Japan easily gobbled up.


Okay, so it must be a draw or defeat then. I guess I can twinkle things around.

What the shit? The Soviets were never in a position to do this, especially not pre-War. Britain is going to fight much harder to keep commissars out of Kabul than they did to keep the Germans out of Paris.


The Russian Empire conquers those lands or has some dynastic union with the remnants of the Persian Empire ITTL, and the Soviet Union secures those same territories from Turko-Iranian Islamic Fundamentalists, a little like OTL. So Britain does not have as much butthurt on that, given they lost "the great game" in the first place.

Why? For shits and giggles? Because any revanchist regime that comes to power in France is going to put a stop to that pretty damn quick.


Hmm. That's a good place for a possible second world war to come out. German-French emnities from the past two wars :p

No. Just...no.
A surviving Ottoman Empire that emerged on the winning side of WWI will control the Caucasus post-War. Turkestan is a whole 'nother problem whose susceptibility to Ottoman conquest is dubious at best.

The Ottoman Empire, while on the "victorious" side ITTL barely can hold on to the lands I mentioned earlierr, they will not be able to grab all of the caucauses. It's like how Armenia got the highlands in the peace conference, but couldn't hold onto those territories.
 
If you go back to the Roman age, the Netherlands had settlements on the coast, which the Romans describe as Frisii, Chauci, and later Saxones, among other names, and then there were almost uninhabited marshes and forests, and then Germany had settlements in the strip of Loess more-or-less along the Lippe.

Before and during Roman times, and through Medieval times, settlers and sometimes invaders moved downstream from the Lippe, along the Rhine; the Batavi had reached Nijmegen before the Romans conquered Gaul. And there was basically continuous immigration from then on, until draining the polder caused it to collapse [e.g. the floods of 1282 and 1287].

So, I'm not sure what it means to say that the Dutch have been Germanized. Or that the Czechs might be Germanized.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
...


Damn. How would a 'draw' from victorious Germany result then, Germany gets to annex Dutch Belgium, Luxembourg and there is no reparation?



How would they blame Germany? It's not like the Germans are defaulting, seems a bit odd...and vindictive.

...

Anyway, didn't the US (well international) banks basically loan to EVERYONE in World War I and make a lot of profit off of it? I doubt the US banking establishment will be that butthurt over that.


AFAIK Czechs are germanized slavs, how were they not fuully germanized?

...

The general German negotiation positions started with the Germans keep all the European territory conquered. I would expect Germany to either annex or install a puppet state in Belgium, Luxembourg, and NE France. Now this would be a negotiation, so most things would be on the table. Germany might be willing to give back some of NE France for say all the colonies back. A lot depends on the relative strength of the parties when the cease fire begins. I would say no reparations is likely. Both side would want and demand them. Both sides would have extreme difficulty paying any meaningful amount of gold. Neither side seriously negotiated during a "draw" type situation, so it likely takes two POD to get a draw cease fire. Imperial Germany is interest in peace in 1916, because of XXX. France is interested in peace because of YYY.

Being an American, i would say we would blame the British for not paying.

Early on, the USA was willing to sell to anyone with cash, but the British command of the seas and blockade made it much easier to sell to the Entente. From memory, over 90% of USA sells are to the Entente.

There were many Germans in what is now the Czech Republic, but there were also Czech. Google the "United States of Greater Austria". It will bring up maps and information that shows the ethnic diversity of A-H. Most Czech could speak German, but this does not mean they though of themselves as German.

Italy was opportunistic. The easy POD for a neutral Italy is much stronger performance by A-H in the first year of the war. It is hard to have both the Ottoman Empire and Italy on the same side due to issues like Libya.
 

Warsie

Banned
The general German negotiation positions started with the Germans keep all the European territory conquered. I would expect Germany to either annex or install a puppet state in Belgium, Luxembourg, and NE France. Now this would be a negotiation, so most things would be on the table. Germany might be willing to give back some of NE France for say all the colonies back. A lot depends on the relative strength of the parties when the cease fire begins. I would say no reparations is likely. Both side would want and demand them. Both sides would have extreme difficulty paying any meaningful amount of gold. Neither side seriously negotiated during a "draw" type situation, so it likely takes two POD to get a draw cease fire. Imperial Germany is interest in peace in 1916, because of XXX. France is interested in peace because of YYY.

Okay.

There were many Germans in what is now the Czech Republic, but there were also Czech. Google the "United States of Greater Austria". It will bring up maps and information that shows the ethnic diversity of A-H. Most Czech could speak German, but this does not mean they though of themselves as German.

That's where I got messed up. I believed because they were considered "germanized slavs" that I could simply germanize them given a few centuries like what happened in border Polish regions historically.

Italy was opportunistic. The easy POD for a neutral Italy is much stronger performance by A-H in the first year of the war. It is hard to have both the Ottoman Empire and Italy on the same side due to issues like Libya.

Ok.
 

Cook

Banned
Damn. How would a 'draw' from victorious Germany result then, Germany gets to annex Dutch Belgium, Luxembourg and there is no reparation?
Such a result could not be considered a victory by the Germans, at best it is the result of them concluding that they could not win and accepting a compromise peace. Such a compromise that left Belgium in German hands would be unacceptable to the Allies. And the circumstances that would result in revolution in Russia and a Bolshevik takeover and withdrawal from the war means that the war lasts for several years, at least beyond 1916 and that means the Germans have to go for victory or face economic ruin in a compromise peace; they’d mortgaged the farm to the hilt to pay for the war, the only way they’d be able to pay off the debts would be by a massive injection of gold from the French. Besides which, the aim of the war was to eliminate France as a threat to Germany for at least fifty years, so any sort of German victory must cripple France and inflict massive reparations on the French.
 
Ideally they join up the in the same process that formed the German Empire, e.g. diplomacy, was, etc etc. Basically I want Bismark to be able to do it in that manner.

When I say 'annex' I mean get them into a german confederation, not full- on conquer them. I want them at least to join the North German Confederation. I know I can butterfly/increase there to be a vague sense of pan-germanism the dutch have, stronger to perhaps how the austrians felt OTL.

Getting the Netherlands to willingly join Germany is hard, very hard, close to impossible hard with a POD in the 19th century. The Netherlands has its own identity and not a German identity; they aren't German anymore since the 80-year war (the Dutch revolt in the 16th-17th century). Germany has nothing to offer the Netherlands. The Dutch even have their own seperate language, which already diverted from German in the 17th century when a bible was created in the Dutch local dialects. Basicly an independent Netherlands would not join Germany willingly (they can always be conquered, but it looks like that is not what you are after). In my opinion the latest you can get the Dutch to want to join Germany is with a Napoleonic victory, in which France annexes the Netherlands, with a Germany next door who supports the German (and Dutch/Flemish) minorities within the French Empire. But even that is pushing it, as they could easily play the related people card. If you want a Netherlands that joins Germany, because they feel German, you realy need the Netherlands remaining Spanish (or possibly Austrian).


Can you please give a short list of how different things would be?
Well you are talking about a Netherlands which isn't independent after the Napoleonic wars, i assume. This means that another country for some reason gains the Netherlands (and the Dutch colonies, but they will probably go to Britain). What country could gain the Netherlands? Well, there is basicly no ruling noble family that has a reasonable claim to the Netherlands, besides Orange-Nassau. Whatever country/noble family gains the Netherlands must be powerful enough not to become the Netherlands (if for some reason the county of Nassau or Oldenburg or whatever gets the Netherlands, the Netherlands would dominate such a small German country). So that more or less leaves either Austria, Prussia and maybe Bavaria (or outside Germany possibly France or Britain). Well France is clearly out as they wanted to avoid a too strong and large France. Britain doesn't want it. Austria got rid of Belgium, because they didn't want it, so I doubt they would care about all of the Netherlands. Lets say Prussia get the Netherlands. Prussia is probably strong and big enough not to be dominated by the Netherlands. It does mean that Prussia gets out of proportionly a lot of new territories, so there is a good chance it loses many other territories it gained in Vienna. In the end I think it is a lot more likely that the Netherlands gets restored either under the house of Orange-Nassau, as a republic or may under some random noble (just like Belgium got a random noble as king). In all three cases the Netherlands remains an independent non-German nation.

As I said, the Dutch won't join Germany as long as they are an independent nation.
 
Top