How important was the Dunkirk evacuation ?

How important was the Dunkirk evacuation ?


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Hitler wasn't a normal politician, making campaign promises. His ideological hatred was the driving force of his life. His megalomania told him he was destined to lead the German People to conquer the East, or to their destruction. He was convinced this had to happen in his lifetime, and he was convinced he would die young. Hitler was in a race against time, and once the war started he felt there was no turning back.

Stalin directed the Comintern to obstruct the Allied war effort as part of the none aggression pact. Stalin knew at some point Hitler would attack him, he misjudged the time, hoping to ovoid a war till 1942. The Soviets never thought of the Germans as long term allies. They were partners in a reciprocal arrangement. They got technology, machine tools, and industrial goods, in exchange for food, oil, and other strategic materials. There was never any trust, or good will between them. It was like their later arrangements with their Cold War advisories, only expedient deals to get what they wanted at the moment, and then put a knife in their back whenever they could.
All of which is marvellous with hindsight, but as I think I commented in a different thread, England (or the UK) hadn't had an official court magician in the original timeline who laid claim to divination powers (authentic or otherwise) since John Dee.
A UK in the scenario on this thread which has lost the expeditionary force in France at Dunkirk, subsequently it is assumed sees Vichy France sign the Bordeaux Armistice and is looking down the wrong end of a Hitler/Mussolini/Stalin team-up doesn't know that in however many months time in the original timeline Hitler would have turned on the Russians. (And for that matter, if the UK has lost the expeditionary force in this scenario, maybe that would be enough in this timeline to tip Stalin over into buying into Hitler's 'let's carve up the British Empire between us!' suggestions. (Edit: Okay: That's probably beyond the scope of the question of summer/early autumn 1940 butterflies.))
And there comes a point in mutual cooperation and back-scratching where what is being referred to as a 'non-aggression pact' starts to look an awful lot like an alliance - especially to those on the wrong end of it.
 
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All of which is marvellous with hindsight, but as I think I commented in a different thread, England (or the UK) hadn't had an official court magician in the original timeline who laid claim to divination powers (authentic or otherwise) since John Dee.
A UK in the scenario on this thread which has lost the expeditionary force in France at Dunkirk, subsequently it is assumed sees Vichy France sign the Bordeaux Armistice and is looking down the wrong end of a Hitler/Mussolini/Stalin team-up doesn't know that in however many months time in the original timeline Hitler would have turned on the Russians. (And for that matter, if the UK has lost the expeditionary force in this scenario, maybe that would be enough in this timeline to tip Stalin over into buying into Hitler's 'let's carve up the British Empire between us!' suggestions. (Edit: Okay: That's probably beyond the scope of the question of summer/early autumn 1940 butterflies.))
And there comes a point in mutual cooperation and back-scratching where what is being referred to as a 'non-aggression pact' starts to look an awful lot like an alliance - especially to those on the wrong end of it.
Several points. First no one needed mystical powers to understand Nazi goals, they were plain for the world to see. If the Soviets were Nazi allies they would've declared war on the UK. The Soviets didn't think one way or the other about the capture of the BEF, what mattered was that the war went on. When Ribbentrop told Molotov in November 1940 they should join the war, because Britain was defeated, he asked, "Then why are we meeting in a bomb shelter?" He didn't say we would've joined if you'd captured the BEF. Every move Stalin made in taking territory in 1939/40 was to create buffer zones against German aggression, all other motives were secondary. The Buildup of military forces, was overwhelmingly directed against Germany, or to threaten German interests, not the British.

The British Government decided to continue the war before the BEF was evacuated, at a time they didn't expect to get back more then 75,000 men. At the time Britain was building towards an army of 30 divisions. In WWII British manpower requirements meant fewer men to feed into the army, then in WWI, but that wasn't understood in 1940. That's why losing the BEF would hurt further down the road, not so much in 1940/41.
 
... If the Soviets were Nazi allies they would've declared war on the UK...
By that logic Italy (another ally of Hitler's Germany, and which if I recall history books correctly benefited from Hitler's takeover of Austria in terms of Italy's borders) would have declared war on the UK and France in September 1939. The fact that Italy did not (edit: declare war on the UK and France in September 1939) did not mean it was not an ally of Hitler's Germany, nor that it would not declare war when the odds looked right.
I also point to Operation Pike (planning for which was interrupted by the German invasion of France) as strongly suggestive that Chamberlain et al firmly believed that Russia was enough of a German ally already that an Anglo-French attempt to bomb Russian oil production to bits wouldn't push the Russians any further into the German camp than Russia already was.
 
By that logic Italy (another ally of Hitler's Germany, and which if I recall history books correctly benefited from Hitler's takeover of Austria in terms of Italy's borders) would have declared war on the UK and France in September 1939. The fact that Italy did not (edit: declare war on the UK and France in September 1939) did not mean it was not an ally of Hitler's Germany, nor that it would not declare war when the odds looked right.
I also point to Operation Pike (planning for which was interrupted by the German invasion of France) as strongly suggestive that Chamberlain et al firmly believed that Russia was enough of a German ally already that an Anglo-French attempt to bomb Russian oil production to bits wouldn't push the Russians any further into the German camp than Russia already was.
I'm sorry your logic is faulty, and not supported by the historic record. The relationship between Italy, and Germany was very different then the one between Germany, and the Soviet Union. Soviet goals and concerns were very different then those of Italy. Italy was the weakest of the major powers, and under Mussolini was seeking a colonial empire, and minor border concessions, if it could be done at little cost, that is no conflict with a major power. Mussolini was a gambler, who bet wrong in June 1940.

The Soviet Union was a much greater power, but was diplomatically isolated. Stalin, and his associates felt they were surrounded by hostile powers, and had no allies. They were distrustful of both the Axis & Allies. Stalin was not impulsive, he was reverse of Hitler, and Mussolini, he was the cold calculating type, always taking the long view. He was following the strategy laid down by Lenin, that in the event of a war between the Capitalist States the Soviet Union should remain neutral, and only intervene when both sides were exhausted.

Stalin's aggression's against Poland, Romania, and Finland were limited moves to create buffer zones, and regain lands lost in WWI. The Soviets initial offer to the Finns was to push back the border near Leningrad, and further from a rail line to Murmansk, in exchange for land in Lapland. After it came to war the terms became less favorable. It's understandable that the British saw the Winter War as connected to Axis aggression. Their insights into Soviet thinking was very limited. Operation Pike was about the dumbest idea of WWII. To attack the Soviet Union for selling oil to Germany would be insane. Just what would be gained, at the cost of engaging such a powerful new enemy?

It shows how poor Allied strategic planning was early in WWII. It was like a bunch of guys sat in a room floating ideas, "Well we've got to do something!" "Say old boy Hitler is getting oil from Baku, so lets bomb it." "But that would mean war with the Soviet Union, won't that make a bloody mess?" "They may make a bit of a fuss, but what more could they do to us, then what their already doing?" Just goofy.
 
Stalin's aggression's against Poland, Romania, and Finland were limited moves to create buffer zones, and regain lands lost in WWI. The Soviets initial offer to the Finns was to push back the border near Leningrad, and further from a rail line to Murmansk, in exchange for land in Lapland. After it came to war the terms became less favorable.

You can certainly call the goal of occupying all of Finland and setting up a Soviet puppet government in Helsinki, or actual annexation as an SSR, "less favorable terms" than giving up a little land on the eastern border, and some islands, would have been for the Finnish nation. Generally speaking, Stalin's aggression towards Finland, or towards the three Baltic states you didn't mention, was only "limited" if you look at the matter from the Soviet perspective. From the POV of these smaller nations, Stalin's goals were total - no less than a complete takeover of their land areas. Even Poland saw itself erased from the map in 1940, due to Stalin taking his share of the spoils, following Hitler's takeover of western Poland. In the event, the demands the Soviets made in the fall of 1939 to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and then Finland, were just the first measure in a plan to wear down their ability to defend themselves, and then in the end take them over entirely. Which in terms of the Baltic states was realized in June 1940.

Generally, these moves by Stalin against Poland and Finland by the end of 1939 were as "limited" as Hitler's actions during the invasion of the Czech lands, or indeed the invasion of Poland had been that far. It is not surprising, in the context of the early WWII in Europe, that the Allies should take these actions by Hitler's erstwhile ally seriously.

As arguably stupid as the Allied plans against the USSR seem like in retrospect, it also has to be said that from the Finnish perspective, the apparent Allied, especially French, commitment to join the war on Finland's side against the USSR in February-March 1939 was *the* crucial thing in making Stalin abandon his plan to conquer Finland during that conflict. He made a hasty peace deal with Finland, with minimum gains, mostly to avoid a war against the British and the French. Otherwise, he could have just let the Red Army wear down the Finnish defences, to capture Helsinki by May 1940 at the latest.

Had the intervention plans and the threat of them being realized existed, we quite possibly would have seen a Finnish SSR in the USSR since 1940. This would have been a catastrophe for the Finnish nation and people, even if for the USSR and for the Allies in the wider WWII, Soviet control of Finland since 1940 probably would have been a very positive thing, allowing significant benefits in the fight against the German invasion since 1941.
 
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Again, there is no evidence that leaders in the UK in 1940 have a professional divination expert, skilled in the arts of supernatural divination, on hand in 1940. As far as I can make out, your logic is based on 'but the UK leaders in mid-1940 will know what would have happened right through to 1945+ in a very different timeline where the British Expeditionary Force was successfully evacuated from Dunkirk, and take a leap of faith and act on that basis, against the grain of what very prominently looks to have been happening (Italy/Germany/Russia team up), and indeed when there is evidence that at the time (Operation Pike) in the original timeline that they were planning for fighting against Stalin's Russia.'
The facts on the ground in mid-1940 as far as I can understand the opening post, are that we are discussing a timeline in which the British have lost the core of their army in France in 1940, with 200,000 odd British troops joining however many French troops it is in prisoner of war camps, that the French will sign the Bordeaux Armistice as in the original timeline (unless an even more catastrophic Anglo-French defeat than in the original timeline somehow butterflies that away), and that the UK is left facing Germany, Italy, and a Russia which has been acting every bit as if it is on board with (division of Poland, shipping food and raw materials to Germany, attacking Finland (as another poster has now brought up), saboteurs acting on instructions from Moscow acting against the UK inside the UK) the Axis.

But: we seem to me to be endlessly repeating the same things here, in an effort to get the other poster to understand something which the other poster believes is not logical according to how they see the facts.
So thank you for the discussion. :)
 
You can certainly call the goal of occupying all of Finland and setting up a Soviet puppet government in Helsinki, or actual annexation as an SSR, "less favorable terms" than giving up a little land on the eastern border, and some islands, would have been for the Finnish nation. Generally speaking, Stalin's aggression towards Finland, or towards the three Baltic states you didn't mention, was only "limited" if you look at the matter from the Soviet perspective. From the POV of these smaller nations, Stalin's goals were total - no less than a complete takeover of their land areas. Even Poland saw itself erased from the map in 1940, due to Stalin taking his share of the spoils, following Hitler's takeover of western Poland. In the event, the demands the Soviets made in the fall of 1939 to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and then Finland, were just the first measure in a plan to wear down their ability to defend themselves, and then in the end take them over entirely. Which in terms of the Baltic states was realized in June 1940.

Generally, these moves by Stalin against Poland and Finland by the end of 1939 were as "limited" as Hitler's actions during the invasion of the Czech lands, or indeed the invasion of Poland had been that far. It is not surprising, in the context of the early WWII in Europe, that the Allies should take these actions by Hitler's erstwhile ally seriously.

As arguably stupid as the Allied plans against the USSR seem like in retrospect, it also has to be said that from the Finnish perspective, the apparent Allied, especially French, commitment to join the war on Finland's side against the USSR in February-March 1939 was *the* crucial thing in making Stalin abandon his plan to conquer Finland during that conflict. He made a hasty peace deal with Finland, with minimum gains, mostly to avoid a war against the British and the French. Otherwise, he could have just let the Red Army wear down the Finnish defences, to capture Helsinki by May 1940 at the latest.

Had the intervention plans and the threat of them being realized existed, we quite possibly would have seen a Finnish SSR in the USSR since 1940. This would have been a catastrophe for the Finnish nation and people, even if for the USSR and for the Allies in the wider WWII, Soviet control of Finland since 1940 probably would have been a very positive thing, allowing significant benefits in the fight against the German invasion since 1941.
I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I thought the Soviets had a moral right to take Finnish territory. We're talking about what the Soviets were thinking, not what others thought of their actions. There is no indication that Stalin ever wanted to annex, or completely dominate Finland. The terms in March 1940 could've been a lot worse, Stalin wanted a neutral Finland. Stalin wasn't losing any sleep about a Franco/British army showing up in Finland. After 4 months nobody showed up, and the force that reached Norway in April was too feeble to do much, they couldn't even effectively operate cross country. Stalin's mistake was starting the Winter War to begin with. If he hadn't done that there never would've been a Continuation War. When Finland gave up again in 1944 Stalin was satisfied with taking Petsamo, and Finnish neutrality. The Allies weren't coming to Finland's aid in 1944, Stalin could've done what he wanted.

The Baltic States, and Poland were different matters. Stalin had a deep seeded grudge against the Poles going back to the War of 1920. Eastern Poland, and the Baltic States served as a buffer zone against the Germans, and improved the Soviet strategic situation. The Baltic states strengthened their position on the Baltic, and prevented anyone from blocking the Gulf of Finland. That was also another reason the Soviets had concerns about the Finns having bases on the Gulf of Finland. To say that the Baltic States were just defenseless, is in a way to explain why Stalin took them, not a moral justification for the action. Stalin was an evil, ruthless man, but he was always cautious, and his grand strategy was defensive. He was never a reckless gambler like Hitler. Of course that was still unclear in 1939, so it's understandable that the Allies didn't understand his goals were limited.

Even though Stalin was a Georgian he was an extreme Russian Nationalist. Eastern Poland had been part of Czarist Russia, and was the home of many Ukrainians, and other Soviet ethnic groups. Stalin essentially ethnically cleansed the region, and tried to decapitate the Polish elite. The Katyn Wood was only a part of Stalin crimes against the Poles. In 1945 Stalin accepted an independent Poland, under Communist control, with the 1939 Eastern border. Poland was given Eastern Germany to create a wider buffer zone against a future German invasion. Bessarabia had also been part of Czarist Russia, so part of this was Soviet resentment of Versailles. Stalin also got a measure of pleasure in 1945 by avenging the Russian defeat in the Russo/Japanese War.

Understanding history is about getting into the heads of people, and understanding their motivations, and thinking. Just reading about what enemies thought about a leader's intentions at the time isn't understanding the big picture. You have to take into account what both sides were thinking. The Finns may have feared a Soviet take over, but that doesn't make it true. In 1940 did Stalin even know the Allies were going to land in Norway? He could have overrun Finland twice, but chose not to do it. It was better for it to be neutral, and not have to occupy it.
 
I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I thought the Soviets had a moral right to take Finnish territory. We're talking about what the Soviets were thinking, not what others thought of their actions. There is no indication that Stalin ever wanted to annex, or completely dominate Finland. The terms in March 1940 could've been a lot worse, Stalin wanted a neutral Finland. Stalin wasn't losing any sleep about a Franco/British army showing up in Finland. After 4 months nobody showed up, and the force that reached Norway in April was too feeble to do much, they couldn't even effectively operate cross country. Stalin's mistake was starting the Winter War to begin with. If he hadn't done that there never would've been a Continuation War. When Finland gave up again in 1944 Stalin was satisfied with taking Petsamo, and Finnish neutrality. The Allies weren't coming to Finland's aid in 1944, Stalin could've done what he wanted.

The Baltic States, and Poland were different matters. Stalin had a deep seeded grudge against the Poles going back to the War of 1920. Eastern Poland, and the Baltic States served as a buffer zone against the Germans, and improved the Soviet strategic situation. The Baltic states strengthened their position on the Baltic, and prevented anyone from blocking the Gulf of Finland. That was also another reason the Soviets had concerns about the Finns having bases on the Gulf of Finland. To say that the Baltic States were just defenseless, is in a way to explain why Stalin took them, not a moral justification for the action. Stalin was an evil, ruthless man, but he was always cautious, and his grand strategy was defensive. He was never a reckless gambler like Hitler. Of course that was still unclear in 1939, so it's understandable that the Allies didn't understand his goals were limited.

Even though Stalin was a Georgian he was an extreme Russian Nationalist. Eastern Poland had been part of Czarist Russia, and was the home of many Ukrainians, and other Soviet ethnic groups. Stalin essentially ethnically cleansed the region, and tried to decapitate the Polish elite. The Katyn Wood was only a part of Stalin crimes against the Poles. In 1945 Stalin accepted an independent Poland, under Communist control, with the 1939 Eastern border. Poland was given Eastern Germany to create a wider buffer zone against a future German invasion. Bessarabia had also been part of Czarist Russia, so part of this was Soviet resentment of Versailles. Stalin also got a measure of pleasure in 1945 by avenging the Russian defeat in the Russo/Japanese War.

About the bolded points, you are simply wrong. There is a lot of evidence of Stalin wanting to take over whole of Finland, beginning with the fact that when the Soviet attack begun on November 30, 1939, the USSR proclaimed that it no longer recognized Finland's legal government, but that there was a "Finnish Democratic government" it now saw as legally leading Finland - the so-called Terijoki government, a Soviet puppet led by a Finnish emigrant Communist. Until January 1940, Stalin then would not recognize the Finnish government diplomatically. The intent there is clear: at the beginning of the war, Stalin had abandoned the idea of a diplomatic solution with an independent Finland, and was committed to put his pet "Finnish Democratic government" in power in Helsinki. Only after Finland could not be conquered as fast as Stalin had planned, with the Red Army failing in the task given to it, Stalin again opened the possibility for a diplomatic solution with the Finns.

Other information pointing towards the aim to conquer all of Finland was, for example, the guide book on Finland issued to the Red Army in the run-up to the war that included specific information about all the parts of the country with helpful specifics like how not to mistakenly cross over to Sweden at the Finno-Swedish border and while there, to remember to be courteous to the Swedish border guards... Also, when we look at the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact's secret protocol (in its amended form), with the exception of Finland all the other areas placed in the Soviet sphere of influence in 1939 were annexed directly into the USSR by 1941.

Given especially the fate of the Baltic states, which also got puppet governments that then "voluntarily" asked to join the USSR, it seems quite likely that a similar fate had been prepared for Finland had the Red Army completed the conquest of Finland by the end of 1940 like was planned. Without the Finnish government's refusal to hand over border areas to the USSR in the fall of 1939, the likeliest outcome for 39-40 would have been a similar creeping takeover for Finland like happened in the Baltic states that did accept the Soviet demands made in the same timeframe.

The history of the Winter War, and the role of Finland in WWII in general, is a heavily researched subject. Historians in Finnish universities and academia have studied the Winter War in depth, and understandably in more detail than, say, US or British historians have. Right now, I believe that it is the generally accepted consensus among Finnish professional historians that 1) Stalin's original goal in the Winter War was to conquer all of Finland, and 2) that the possibility of an Allied intervention was the key reason why Stalin in the end in March 1940 decided to make peace with Finland with only very limited gains for the USSR. Without such an outside factor to the equation, it would not even have been logical for the USSR to end the war when it did, after what had been a humiliating showing for the Red Army, at a point in time when the Soviets were actually finally winning the war, and were only mere weeks away from breaking the Finnish army for good.

The most recent book examining this issue, by a professional historian, was published in 2016. In his book Stalin ja Suomen kohtalo ("Stalin and the Fate of Finland"), Kimmo Rentola, Helsinki University history professor and highly respected researcher, argues the point about the crucial role played by the Allied intervention plans in making Stalin stop the attack, based on a good number of primary and secondary sources, also official documents from the former Soviet archives. Rentola had also published practically the same research earlier in a peer-reviewed article in English in The International History Review.

According to Rentola's research, Stalin truly believed that an Allied intervention in support of Finland was imminent in early March 1940. This was in big part due to Stalin being, in the event, reliant on intelligence information from France, where the discussion about the intervention was overtly and unrealistically positive, making it seem actually likely, whereas he was temporarily not receiving information from his intelligence operatives in Britain, which would have likely made him understand that it was actually unlikely that the intervention would be realized. This apprehension about the Allies joining the war on the Finnish side was what made him hurry the peace deal with the Finns, even while he knew that the Finnish army was on its last legs and that total victory was very close. The argument about Stalin thinking that he needs to wrap up the Winter War early to avoid it escalating into a war against the British and the French is very much not a fringe theory, but a source-based result of professional historical research based also on a pre-existing corpus made of decades of Finnish academic historiography.

Notably, Rentola's book has received nothing but positive reviews from Finnish professonal historians, and was also given a national nonfiction prize in 2017.

What stands out from Rentola's treatment in the book in general is that a) Stalin apparently never had a "masterplan" for Europe, but his plans were changing all the time, depending on changing circumstances, and b) the events of the Winter War were the crucial thing that branded the relations between Stalin and the Finnish leadership in 1940-1953. To read Rentola's book, it then appears that it was only through the Winter War that Finland became a "special case" for Stalin - the Finnish will and ability to put up a resistance apparently had a significant effect on him in terms of how he viewed Finland. Before that, we might argue that he viewed Finland in the same light as the Baltic states, only differing from them in terms of its more northern and on balance more peripheral geographical position, not in terms of the justification of its national existence. After early 1940, though, Stalin apparently had a grudging respect towards Finland, in that the nation apparently could put up a credible defence, and then attract foreign support for its cause (as manifested in the Allied intervention plans during the Winter War, of which Stalin apparently had a distorted view).

Stalin's treatment of Finland during the Continuation War and after it should then be seen in this light, especially as his view about the Finnish will and ability to defend themselves was probably reaffirmed through the battles of the summer of 1944. But, if we accept Rentola's thesis, we should not project this acceptance by Stalin to treat Finland as a special case into the pre-Winter War situation, or into a TL where there is not Winter War, especially to one where the Finns would cave in to Soviet demands in 38-39. In such a TL, Stalin would have much less will to treat Finland in an almost cordial fashion. We need to remember that even if it is sometimes claimed that Stalin "always" had a bit of a soft spot for Finland, in the purges he absolutely decimated the cadres of Finnish Communist leaders and civil warriors who had escaped into Soviet Russia post-1918.

Understanding history is about getting into the heads of people, and understanding their motivations, and thinking. Just reading about what enemies thought about a leader's intentions at the time isn't understanding the big picture. You have to take into account what both sides were thinking. The Finns may have feared a Soviet take over, but that doesn't make it true. In 1940 did Stalin even know the Allies were going to land in Norway? He could have overrun Finland twice, but chose not to do it. It was better for it to be neutral, and not have to occupy it.

I agree with the bolded idea. And because of that, I must invite you to reconsider your understanding about how Stalin viewed the Finns, and what his goals were in Finland, based on actual historical research, not guesswork. Before and in 1939, Stalin did not want Finland to be neutral, he wanted to conquer Finland and make it a part of the Soviet sphere, occupied by Soviet troops. But then Finland's ability to survive through the Winter War, especially, and then the Continuation War, too, made Stalin grudgingly accept the value of Finland being a neutral country on the USSR's northwestern flank. Simply put, trying to take Finland over directly had proven more trouble than it was worth.
 
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Let's look at how the German Soviet relationship was seen at the time. No one believed it was anything more than a temporary thing.

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All of which is marvellous with hindsight, but as I think I commented in a different thread, England (or the UK) hadn't had an official court magician in the original timeline who laid claim to divination powers (authentic or otherwise) since John Dee.
What is the quote about history not repeating, but rhyming? This isn't even the second time the British have been kicked off the continent.
 
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