How Important was Hannover W/O Britain?

The Danish option considering a non-British involvement in the Great Nordic War 1712-20 without a Hanoverian pretender might seem the obvious choice mostly so if the war goes more or less according to OTL with Denmark-Norway getting in possession of Bremen-Verden. This would make D-N quite some neighbour you'd want to please. OTOH D-N without the British alliance may not feel ready to incorporate Gottorp Schlewig 1721 which may make for a more secure southern border for some time without an irate Gottorp Duke.
Post 1725 things may come to look somewhat different without a British hold on Hanover.

Might Hannover play off Denmark-Norway and Sweden-Holstein against each other? Granted, IDK if George I had that sort of cunning in his nature, since most info on him is by English authors focusing on his shortcomings in London rather than his German diplomacy
 
Might Hannover play off Denmark-Norway and Sweden-Holstein against each other? Granted, IDK if George I had that sort of cunning in his nature, since most info on him is by English authors focusing on his shortcomings in London rather than his German diplomacy

I don't see D-N ITTL being interested in handing Hanover Bremen-Verden. Much more likely to keep it as another royal possession which would help limit the resources of Hanover. Getting a land bridge to Oldenburg may even serve to make for some royal interest in that country too.
So yes some Machiavellian doings by George I if he is able to as the Swedish gorilla in his neighbourhood have been replaced with the Danish one; and as history have shown one that will be actively protecting its North German assets to secure the southern border. Without the British backing he'll have to look for a big ally however.
Come 1730 and the ascending to the throne of Christian 6 with the reconcilliatory policy towards Sweden Hanover may have to look someplace else.
 
I don't see D-N ITTL being interested in handing Hanover Bremen-Verden. Much more likely to keep it as another royal possession which would help limit the resources of Hanover. Getting a land bridge to Oldenburg may even serve to make for some royal interest in that country too.
So yes some Machiavellian doings by George I if he is able to as the Swedish gorilla in his neighbourhood have been replaced with the Danish one; and as history have shown one that will be actively protecting its North German assets to secure the southern border. Without the British backing he'll have to look for a big ally however.
Come 1730 and the ascending to the throne of Christian 6 with the reconcilliatory policy towards Sweden Hanover may have to look someplace else.

What about Prussia?
 
What about Prussia?

At this time - 1700 - Prussia is a state the size of D-N populationwise and used to be part of the D-N "security zone" in Northern Germany; in as the Danish royal family used to intermarry with those German princely ones.
Denmark-Norway and Prussia would ally during the Great Northern War yielding Bremen-Verden to D-N and Southern WestPommern to Brandenburg-Prussia.
Denmark would like to keep Bremen-Verden as it yielded 200,000 Daler tax to the Swedish king by 1700. Sweden-Finland yielded 700,000! That would be a very nice addition to the almost empty Danish coffer and make D-N able to repay the debts of waging the Great Nordic War within a few years. Add to this the income of sitting astride the Elbe and Weser rivers.
Prussia isn't really able to do much about D-N till a much later time and thus not much of an ally to Hanover.
ITTL there isn't much incentive for Britain to support Prussia unless its viewed as the thing necessary to keep the balance on the continent. Which probably will make for the lesser powers like D-N, Prussia and Sweden to look to Russia, Austria or France for alliance. Hanover will just be another German state on which to wage war!
 
The decision to add an elector was made when a Catholic branch of the Wittlesbach inherited the Palatinate, in order to reassure the protestant states. The choice of Hannover was as a reward for his service in the Nine Years War.
After the 30 years war the elector count stood at 8, with the recreation of the Palatinate.

The Archbishop of Mainz(Catholic)
The Archbishop of Trier(Catholic)
The Archbishop of Cologne(Catholic)
The King of Bohemia(Catholic)
Elector of Bavaria(Catholic)
The Margrave of Brandenburg(Protestant)
Electoral Palatinate(Protestant)
The Duke of Saxony(Protestant)

The Palatinate flipped to Catholic, and Brunswick-Luneberg was added, raising the total to 9, but keeping 3 protestant votes. And also, reducing the Ecclesiastical votes to only 3 of 9 against 6 secular prince electors.

Aand then Saxony went and became Catholic (the elector at least), so it threw out the balance just as quickly as it had been established. Would've been interesting to see them either create another electorate (where?) or remove the Saxon vote back to the Ernestine branch (duke of Weimar)
 
Sorry to revive an old thread, but I was wondering something. If George I had a second son (i.e. either Sophia Dorothea is born male or she or George II have a twin) could/would George have said, when succeeding to the English throne in 1714, 'okay, oldest son gets Hannover, younger son gets England'? OTL, George wasn't mad about his brothers, hence why he wouldn't have done this, George II/Frederick Lewis proposed doing something similar (splitting it Hannover to Cumberland and Britain to Frederick, I think (there was even a plan for Cumberland to marry an Este princess in order to ensure that he couldn't inherit England to make it stick), but when George II died, George III inherited everything. How would Hannover fare with being related to the British royal family, but not being the British royal family? Does it's policies move in lockstep with London? And how happy would Westminster be about getting rid of that continental albatross around its neck?
 
Wouldn't it just like in OTL become another electorate of HRE ruled by its princely family and having to adapt to the situation as Westminster would be too happy to get rid of it! Perhaps if as you propose a sibling of the King of Britain some relatives close ties as any other ruling family but still the needs of the situation and then come the second generation the two would drift apart.
 
The Danish option considering a non-British involvement in the Great Nordic War 1712-20 without a Hanoverian pretender might seem the obvious choice mostly so if the war goes more or less according to OTL with Denmark-Norway getting in possession of Bremen-Verden. This would make D-N quite some neighbour you'd want to please. OTOH D-N without the British alliance may not feel ready to incorporate Gottorp Schlewig 1721 which may make for a more secure southern border for some time without an irate Gottorp Duke.
Post 1725 things may come to look somewhat different without a British hold on Hanover.

Schleswig-Gottorp would be annexed no matter what if Denmark was on the winning side. The reason to this goes back to the Scanian War, where France recognised that Denmark could potentially that part of the duchy, not even Russia would be able to veto that without invading Denmark.

Beside that I agree that Denmark would also annex Bremen-Verden, they simply don't need to bribe Hanover without George on the British throne. Russia could theorectical try to veto it, but it would strengthen Sweden significant, while also make Russia look like a ally you can't trust.
 
The only way I see the Hanover's not inheriting the British Throne is lets say Queen Anne's son, Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester lives to adulthood and inherits the throne as Henry IX. But the fact that until a surviving young Henry IX does produces heirs and solidifies the remaining Stuart-Glucksberg line, the Hanover's are still going to be "next in line." So that alone may, for a while, keep them secure in the politics of Germany and Europe.
 
Wouldn't it just like in OTL become another electorate of HRE ruled by its princely family and having to adapt to the situation as Westminster would be too happy to get rid of it! Perhaps if as you propose a sibling of the King of Britain some relatives close ties as any other ruling family but still the needs of the situation and then come the second generation the two would drift apart.

Would they? The electoral lines of the houses of Hohenzollern and Wettin retained a relatively close relationship with their ducal/margravial cousins. Although, I suppose that could just be because they would both be in Germany rather than one in Germany and one in a foreign country, so they probably had some of the same interests. More like the relationship between the Palatine and Bavarian electoral lines?

Schleswig-Gottorp would be annexed no matter what if Denmark was on the winning side. The reason to this goes back to the Scanian War, where France recognised that Denmark could potentially that part of the duchy, not even Russia would be able to veto that without invading Denmark.

Beside that I agree that Denmark would also annex Bremen-Verden, they simply don't need to bribe Hanover without George on the British throne. Russia could theorectical try to veto it, but it would strengthen Sweden significant, while also make Russia look like a ally you can't trust.

Okay, so Russia can veto Denmark's annexation of Bremen-Verden but not Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp? However, Russia, post-Nystadt seemed to be interested in closer relations with Sweden, since they married the czar's eldest daughter to the heir of Carl XII. So might Russia support Holstein seizing Bremen instead. Still goes to a cadet line of the Danish royal family, but it doesn't go to either Denmark/Sweden, so there can't be bad blood? Of course, if things in Russia go as OTL and Russia ends up theoretically inheriting Holstein, it could prove an apple of discord.

The only way I see the Hanover's not inheriting the British Throne is lets say Queen Anne's son, Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester lives to adulthood and inherits the throne as Henry IX. But the fact that until a surviving young Henry IX does produces heirs and solidifies the remaining Stuart-Glucksberg line, the Hanover's are still going to be "next in line." So that alone may, for a while, keep them secure in the politics of Germany and Europe.

Um...I think you mean William, Duke of Gloucester. Henry, Duke of Gloucester is Anne's uncle, William's her son.

That said, let's think on this, there are 50+ candidates ahead of Sophia, some of which are pretty insignificant rulers - Salm-Salm, anyone? - any one of them can convert (not saying they will, but they can). Plus, Anne hated George I, Sophia and by extension George II. Georg I slighted her by refusing her hand in marriage, she despised Sophia because she suspected Sophia was behind it - plus Sophia's better health didn't help matters (it was only by a freak accident that Sophia didn't succeed Anne). That said, she also viewed the death of her own children and her deteriorating relationship with William and Mary, as a sort of divine retribution for her betrayal of her dad and brother in 1688. If her daughter, Anne Sophia (the healthiest of her children according to her autopsy) survived, Anne's going to marry her off to George II, both to ensure the Protestant succession and to block George I. (There were rumors, cited by Antonia Fraser in her biography on Louis XIV, that Anne wanted to do this with her half-sister, Louisa Maria, if James III died ahead of schedule). To her mind, as long as her sister breathed, George I/II couldn't claim the throne in their own right.
 
Would they? The electoral lines of the houses of Hohenzollern and Wettin retained a relatively close relationship with their ducal/margravial cousins. Although, I suppose that could just be because they would both be in Germany rather than one in Germany and one in a foreign country, so they probably had some of the same interests. More like the relationship between the Palatine and Bavarian electoral lines?



Okay, so Russia can veto Denmark's annexation of Bremen-Verden but not Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp? However, Russia, post-Nystadt seemed to be interested in closer relations with Sweden, since they married the czar's eldest daughter to the heir of Carl XII. So might Russia support Holstein seizing Bremen instead. Still goes to a cadet line of the Danish royal family, but it doesn't go to either Denmark/Sweden, so there can't be bad blood? Of course, if things in Russia go as OTL and Russia ends up theoretically inheriting Holstein, it could prove an apple of discord.



Um...I think you mean William, Duke of Gloucester. Henry, Duke of Gloucester is Anne's uncle, William's her son.

That said, let's think on this, there are 50+ candidates ahead of Sophia, some of which are pretty insignificant rulers - Salm-Salm, anyone? - any one of them can convert (not saying they will, but they can). Plus, Anne hated George I, Sophia and by extension George II. Georg I slighted her by refusing her hand in marriage, she despised Sophia because she suspected Sophia was behind it - plus Sophia's better health didn't help matters (it was only by a freak accident that Sophia didn't succeed Anne). That said, she also viewed the death of her own children and her deteriorating relationship with William and Mary, as a sort of divine retribution for her betrayal of her dad and brother in 1688. If her daughter, Anne Sophia (the healthiest of her children according to her autopsy) survived, Anne's going to marry her off to George II, both to ensure the Protestant succession and to block George I. (There were rumors, cited by Antonia Fraser in her biography on Louis XIV, that Anne wanted to do this with her half-sister, Louisa Maria, if James III died ahead of schedule). To her mind, as long as her sister breathed, George I/II couldn't claim the throne in their own right.
I stand corrected on Anne's son's name. Thank you.

I think it all comes down to the fact that the Hanover's were going to inherit the throne and the rest of Europe must keep in mind that the King of Great Britain and the Elector of Hanover will eventually be the same person albeit two different and separate governments. For this simple reason, it can be assumed that it would allow Hanover time should any European power consider invading, annexing, or dealiing unfavorably with the small electorate.

Of course thanks to the Salic Law in Hanover, this all goes away with the separation of the same head of State once Victoria becomes Queen of Great Britain and her uncle becomes King of Hanover. Severing any ties between the two nations other than family relations.
 
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Okay, so Russia can veto Denmark's annexation of Bremen-Verden but not Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp? However, Russia, post-Nystadt seemed to be interested in closer relations with Sweden, since they married the czar's eldest daughter to the heir of Carl XII. So might Russia support Holstein seizing Bremen instead. Still goes to a cadet line of the Danish royal family, but it doesn't go to either Denmark/Sweden, so there can't be bad blood? Of course, if things in Russia go as OTL and Russia ends up theoretically inheriting Holstein, it could prove an apple of discord.

Schleswig-Gottorp, not Holstein-Gottorp. Schleswig-Gottorp lay outside the HRE and was since the Dano-Swedish War been in something of a limbo, traditional Schleswig had been a Danish vassal, but Schleswig-Gottorp got independence from Denmark in the Dano-Swedish War, but its independence lay in a unclear legal limbo, so Denmark still had a claim to the overlordship to the duchy in the view of many states in Europe. Holstein-Gottorp on the other hand was a vassal of the Emperor as such the Danish claim was limited to the king position as co-Duke of Holstein, which would only come in play if the Gottorps had died out

schleswig.gif



I have a few thoughts about Hanover. The Electorate was pretty insignificant, it was smaller, poorer and less developed than all the other electorates. People compare it with Saxony, but Saxony had much larger population (likely the double), was much more developed and much easier to defend.

So how would the electorate look, I think the Hessian states would be the best model, it would likely end up as a overly militarised state, which earned its money renting its armies out to the British, Austrians and maybe the Danes. Fundamental it would become a bigger version of the Hessian states. Of course its position as a electorate would give the state more political tools, and we would likely see the electorate do it best to use those tools to expand Hanover, with Austria supporting them as a way to weaken Prussia's position in north Germany. Hanover and the Hessian states would likely end up in Danish orbit with Denmark being much more activistic. In OTL after the Great Northern War, Denmark became rather inward looking, because the peace treaty showed that Denmark wouldn't be allowed to gain Swedish land, it couldn't annex Holstein-Gottorp and British Hanover made expansion to the south impossible. Here Denmark will likely try to set up a hegemony over Mecklenburg, Lower Saxony and Hessen, intermarry with the different house here (as they did in OTL) and set up alliances. Denmark will likely join the Austrian alliance in the Austrian Succession War together with Hanover and take land from Prussia. Sweden may also get a moment of good sense and join the Austrians instead of France and try to regain Hither Pomerania from Prussia. I could see Denmark gaining East Frisia and some other other land from Prussia, the latter would likely be traded for Saxe-Lauenburg with Hanover. Hanover would likely go after some of Prussia western enclaves (I think Minden, Lingen, Tecklenburg and Ravensberg would be likely gains) but Magdeburg would also be a good price. Gaining the latter would be a major gain.

6787c229d9f053384843e7bb4889a378.jpg
 
Would they? The electoral lines of the houses of Hohenzollern and Wettin retained a relatively close relationship with their ducal/margravial cousins. Although, I suppose that could just be because they would both be in Germany rather than one in Germany and one in a foreign country, so they probably had some of the same interests. More like the relationship between the Palatine and Bavarian electoral lines?

Bismarck didn't invent realpolitik - the Danish royal family and its cadet branch in Schleswig-Holstein were in conflict for centuries. Victoria's grandchildren didn't mind having their empires go to war in 1914. Elizabeth Stuart didn't get much help from her parents when in dire need even her uncle Christian IV of Denmark wouldn't do much except get intermingled hopelessly in the ThirtyYearsWar morass; but this is all a simplification and there's lots of examples.
 
Here's my idea of the result of the Austrian Succession War

nobritishhanoverunion_by_valravn74-dazj9g0.png

I think this is why Napoleon created the Confederation of the Rhine and the Austrians and Prussians decided after the Congress of Vienna to change it very little and form the German Confederation. Just looking at it makes you realize how difficult it must have been to have any sense of organization.
 
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