How few Remain

[Reisen Storm]

So I've been reading How Few Remain and I'm absolutely confused about the Second Mexican War Fiasco and the whole novel in general. the Confederates wanted to purchase Chihuahua, and Sanora from the Mexican empire, so the Confederates can expand, and the Mexicans can get out of debt. The Problem I'm having understanding is why would the Second Mexican Empire Sell the land to the Confederates? Even setting aside the idea the CSA would have had the money to pay for that much land (they wouldn't after Egypt and India cotton enters the market), the idea that Mexico would sell of the northern states is nonsensical and idiotic. We're talking about the same nation who ousted a previous leader for selling a strip of land. And Why would Maximilian, who was an abolitionist and perceived himself as a European liberal, agree to this deal? He would have rejected this, it betrays not only his Ideals but also how he viewed himself as ruler of Mexico.

If anything this should have been a Confederate-Mexican War

 

[TheNixonator]

Well in real life Maximilian actually saw the Confederates as allies, also northern Mexico was not that populated at that time

Also they were in debt, so yeah

 

[TheNixonator]

And it also mentions it was really cheap land, and so the Confederate could potentially of bought if you imagine they get richer after the civil war

 

[Worffan101]

And it also mentions it was really cheap land, and so the Confederate could potentially of bought if you imagine they get richer after the civil war

Being allies is very different from being a shop for land, and also why would the Confederates be richer? If anything they should be a failed state on the verge of total collapse.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Being allies is very different from being a shop for land, and also why would the Confederates be richer? If anything they should be a failed state on the verge of total collapse.

Because Harry Turtledove had wedded himself to a CSA that was somehow a peer competitor with the USA in the Great War novels, so he had to have the CSA as being thriving, rapidly-industrialising and rich.

 

[Historyman 14]

Because Harry Turtledove had wedded himself to a CSA that was somehow a peer competitor with the USA in the Great War novels, so he had to have the CSA as being thriving, rapidly-industrialising and rich.

Which...IS possible. More so with Kentucky, Cuba, Chihuahua, and Sanora, and all that sweet Texas and Gulf oil.

(Don't look at me. CSA industrialization has some good posts about the subject.)

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Being allies is very different from being a shop for land, and also why would the Confederates be richer? If anything they should be a failed state on the verge of total collapse.

To make matters worse, Mexico was also known as a traditional escape route for slaves on the Underground Railroad. This would have certainly made any sale questionable at best....

 

[Worffan101]

Which...IS possible. More so with Kentucky, Cuba, Chihuahua, and Sanora, and all that sweet Texas and Gulf oil.

(Don't look at me. CSA industrialization has some good posts about the subject.)

Not in the 1880s though, not with a tech drought and the general chaos that would necessarily follow a Confederate secession.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Which...IS possible. More so with Kentucky, Cuba, Chihuahua, and Sanora, and all that sweet Texas and Gulf oil.

(Don't look at me. CSA industrialization has some good posts about the subject.)

Not in the 1880s though, not with a tech drought and the general chaos that would necessarily follow a Confederate secession.

I'm with Worf here. The CSA could theoretically do it, but they couldn't do it so soon after the war - they'd need a long period of peace-time to try to get their economy patched up...

 

[skozik]

Confederate victories are, as a general rule, not.... realistic. At all.

 

[MarchingThroughGeorgia]

Confederate victories are, as a general rule, not.... realistic. At all.

Well yeah, but sometimes the unrealistic things can make the best stories

 

[bguy]

So I've been reading How Few Remain and I'm absolutely confused about the Second Mexican War Fiasco and the whole novel in general. the Confederates wanted to purchase Chihuahua, and Sanora from the Mexican empire, so the Confederates can expand, and the Mexicans can get out of debt. The Problem I'm having understanding is why would the Second Mexican Empire Sell the land to the Confederates? Even setting aside the idea the CSA would have had the money to pay for that much land (they wouldn't after Egypt and India cotton enters the market), the idea that Mexico would sell of the northern states is nonsensical and idiotic. We're talking about the same nation who ousted a previous leader for selling a strip of land. And Why would Maximilian, who was an abolitionist and perceived himself as a European liberal, agree to this deal? He would have rejected this, it betrays not only his Ideals but also how he viewed himself as ruler of Mexico.

If anything this should have been a Confederate-Mexican War

Well that raises the other problem with the scenario, why would the Confederates even want Chihuahua and Sonora? In the book the stated reason is that the Confederates want to build their own transcontinental railroad, but that really doesn't make much sense. Building a railroad across Sonora and Chihuahua (mountainous terrain that also happens to be Apache territory) would be extremely difficult and expensive, and what do the Confederates get if they succeed? Their trade with the Pacific is negligible (the markets for Confederate cotton are in the United States and Europe not Asia), so it's unlikely any such railroad would ever be economically viable.

I always thought a better rationale for the war might be that the Blaine Administration supports a military coup in Mexico to overthrow Maximilian and install a pro-US puppet regime. Longstreet, not wanting the CSA to be caught in a vise between the US and a hostile Mexico and being pressured by the British and French to intervene (who fear that the new government will repudiate Imperial Mexico's debts to their countries) sends an expeditionary force into Mexico to restore the Imperial regime. Blaine then sends an ultimatum demanding the Confederates withdraw their forces from Mexico or face war. Longstreet (assured of British and French support) rejects the ultimatum and war is declared.

 

[Lusitania]

The only possibility for the success of the confederate would be that following French and British support for confederates the US breaks off diplomatic and trade with both British and French. They in turn pour $ into confederates allowing it to start industrialize.

 

[Reisen Storm]

Well that raises the other problem with the scenario, why would the Confederates even want Chihuahua and Sonora? In the book the stated reason is that the Confederates want to build their own transcontinental railroad, but that really doesn't make much sense. Building a railroad across Sonora and Chihuahua (mountainous terrain that also happens to be Apache territory) would be extremely difficult and expensive, and what do the Confederates get if they succeed? Their trade with the Pacific is negligible (the markets for Confederate cotton are in the United States and Europe not Asia), so it's unlikely any such railroad would ever be economically viable.

Wouldn't Mexico also give them access to the Pacific? I mean with some tariffs of course, but they still have access nonetheless. Which adds more reasons why Turtledove even wrote that.

I always thought a better rationale for the war might be that the Blaine Administration supports a military coup in Mexico to overthrow Maximilian and install a pro-US puppet regime. Longstreet, not wanting the CSA to be caught in a vise between the US and a hostile Mexico and being pressured by the British and French to intervene (who fear that the new government will repudiate Imperial Mexico's debts to their countries) sends an expeditionary force into Mexico to restore the Imperial regime. Blaine then sends an ultimatum demanding the Confederates withdraw their forces from Mexico or face war. Longstreet (assured of British and French support) rejects the ultimatum and war is declared.

The novel should have been an ATL political Thriller. Longstreet demanding Maximillion to repatriate any slaves that escape into Mexico (I believe Mexico was a destination for escaped slaves) with Maximillion who himself was an abolitionist denies that request. Making this issue into a crisis that inevitably sparks a war between the two. With the Blaine Administration now left with a choice, it doesn't like. Support the Monarchy or let the CSA Expand and along with it expanding slavery. In Europe, The British Government is shitting itself when they hear that Germany is trying to entice the U.S.A into an anti-British alliance and trying to reach a rapprochement with the U.S.A and their decision if allying the C.S.A is even worth the problem. Whereas Longstreet is using this war as a means to put an end to slavery and reform the government via outside means realizing it's killing the Confederacy both Politically and Economically.

 

[Dave Howery]

Wouldn't Mexico also give them access to the Pacific? I mean with some tariffs of course, but they still have access nonetheless. Which adds more reasons why Turtledove even wrote that.

HT wrote it mainly because he needed a second bitterly-lost war for the USA, to keep the hatred going between the two sides, and ultimately set up the Great War/WW2 between the USA and CSA... without it, there is a roughly 50 year gap between the ACW and WW1.... that's a rather long time to keep the rancor going...

 

[A Piece of History]

The Second Mexican Empire, after it was successfully established by Napoleon III during the French invasion of Mexico in this timeline, was unstable and deeply in debt. It sold Chihuahua and Sonora to the CSA so the CSA would give them money which they would use to pay off their debts. (Though, I'm left wondering how an Austrian became a accepted ruler of Mexico by the Mexican people)

 

[Odinson]

The Second Mexican Empire, after it was successfully established by Napoleon III during the French invasion of Mexico in this timeline, was unstable and deeply in debt. It sold Chihuahua and Sonora to the CSA so the CSA would give them money which they would use to pay off their debts. (Though, I'm left wondering how an Austrian became a accepted ruler of Mexico by the Mexican people)

Maybe the leadership of the Mexican Republicans died at some point and that killed the will to keep on fighting?

Or perhaps Maximilian finally won over the Mexican people?

 

[Reisen Storm]

perhaps Maximilian finally won over the Mexican people?

Not that far-fetch, to be honest. From what I could gather, Poor Mexicans and native Mexicans liked Him for what he did to improve their lives. His wife, Empress Carlota began holding parties for the wealthy Mexicans to raise money for poor houses. One of Maximilian's first acts as Emperor was to restrict working hours and abolish child labor. He canceled all debts for peasants over 10 pesos, restored the communal property and forbade all forms of corporal punishment. He also broke the monopoly of the Hacienda stores and decreed that henceforth peons could no longer be bought and sold for the price of their debt.

He even went as far as discuss territorial matters and seek land rights with the Kickapoo tribe.

 

[A Piece of History]

Poor Mexicans and native Mexicans liked Him for what he did to improve their lives. His wife, Empress Carlota began holding parties for the wealthy Mexicans to raise money for poor houses. One of Maximilian's first acts as Emperor was to restrict working hours and abolish child labor. He canceled all debts for peasants over 10 pesos, restored the communal property and forbade all forms of corporal punishment. He also broke the monopoly of the Hacienda stores and decreed that henceforth peons could no longer be bought and sold for the price of their debt.

So, I'm guessing his foreign origins didn't matter much as long as he was a good ruler to them.

 

[Reisen Storm]

So, I'm guessing his foreign origins didn't matter much as long as he was a good ruler to them.

For the Average Mexican? No, it wouldn't matter. Besides, he was becoming one with Mexico.