How far west could the Chinese empire expand?

In OTL the Chinese empire never expanded beyond the Caspian Sea. What if it had expanded further west? How far west could it plausibly expand? What would be the long term cultural and political ramifications of a "China in Europe" sceanario?
 
That indeed did happen under the Mongols. But given China's own size, its rulers and bureaucrats will be too preoccupied with internal matters to bother with massive westward expansion into barbarian realms. Territorial expansion was generally committed by dynasties descended from Turkic or Mongol tribes such as the Tang and the Qing. And the Yuan, which precisely the Mongols were. The consensus here is that a successful Mongol invasion of Europe would have seriously set back governance and commerce for generations.

If instead an industrializing China began a scramble for Europe by colonizing European ports, that would have been a separate matter.
 
The same reason why they decided not to explore the east Sino-Centrism, only under the Mongol Yuan and Manchu Qing did the China even decide to take over the area that is Tibet. They only sent a military expedition to the west under Ban Chao during the Han Dynasty, so I don't think China would even want to expand to west.
 
The same reason why they decided not to explore the east Sino-Centrism, only under the Mongol Yuan and Manchu Qing did the China even decide to take over the area that is Tibet. They only sent a military expedition to the west under Ban Chao during the Han Dynasty, so I don't think China would even want to expand to west.

At least the Han were aware of a vast and rich empire at the western edge of the world which it viewed as an equal. But China itself is so large and unwieldy that no emperor can afford to place overseas conquest near the top of his priorities. And while I don't think an industrializing China will intentionally begin settlement colonies, some budding entrepreneur from Fujian or Guangdong would almost certainly form a "West Seas Company" which bullies and extorts the kings and princes of Europe.
 
The same reason why they decided not to explore the east Sino-Centrism, only under the Mongol Yuan and Manchu Qing did the China even decide to take over the area that is Tibet. They only sent a military expedition to the west under Ban Chao during the Han Dynasty, so I don't think China would even want to expand to west.

Don't forget about the Tang. There was definitely expansion to the West during at the time.
 
What if you had a more decentralized system where there is an emperor, but more in a HRE sort of way? Everyone educated uses Classical Chinese and all the feudal lords/dukes/minor kings acknowledge this emperor as their de jure superior. Cultural exportation could happen much as it did IOTL, with to "Middle" culture and philosophy occupying a status of prestige. It would be by and large seen as a honor and form of regional insurance to be able to enter the "Central" confederation. Smaller, frontier states would be provided with technology to develop their societies and military assistance when in danger of foreign encroachment.

A POD for this could be possibly that the state of Qin does not succeed in the Warring States era, and it goes on until fringe barbarians becomes too much of a pain in the a** and the surviving Chinese states agree to unite multilaterally. Confucianism, having not been systematically destroyed by the Qin emperor, could flourish in the confederation steeled by defense against a common enemy. To balance out powers between dukes and emperor, some laws could be passed regulating who could do what. This would give the empire's government greater longevity.

However, I don't really think such a state could last that long, or long enough to consolidate control over an area much larger than OTL China, unless it were to industrialize or at least partially industrialize.
 
The problem is logistics.

China is a settled agricultural empire. Anywhere much to the west is steppe. The rule west under the Mongols was an aberration - because it wasn't CHINA that ruled the steppes, it was the steppes that, for a while, ruled China. And once the Mongols settled down in China, did they really control their steppe brethren any more?

Basically, for a settled agricultural civilization to hold land on the steppes long term, you need gunpowder to give you a leg up on the nomads.

OK. Could the Chinese, going west, have beat the Russians, coming east? Possibly. But then you'd need Chinese equivalents of Cossacks, only partly under central control - and as others have pointed out, that wasn't consistent with the way the Chinese empire was run.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
OK. Could the Chinese, going west, have beat the Russians, coming east? Possibly. But then you'd need Chinese equivalents of Cossacks, only partly under central control - and as others have pointed out, that wasn't consistent with the way the Chinese empire was run.

Why did the Chinese rulers think that way? What is the philosophical basis for it? Both the Russians and various Europeans were comfortable with military/commercial commands where it could take well over a year for a round trip message to happen. What was different in the mind of a chinese emperor compared to a European king? I can see it not being worth the trouble of having a Chinese Africa Company, but to have a basic philosophy insisting on strong central control of things so far away seems odd.
 
Why did the Chinese rulers think that way? What is the philosophical basis for it? Both the Russians and various Europeans were comfortable with military/commercial commands where it could take well over a year for a round trip message to happen. What was different in the mind of a chinese emperor compared to a European king? I can see it not being worth the trouble of having a Chinese Africa Company, but to have a basic philosophy insisting on strong central control of things so far away seems odd.

Conversely, the idea of Western style feudalism (for example) would probably seem odd in China.
 
Why did the Chinese rulers think that way? What is the philosophical basis for it? Both the Russians and various Europeans were comfortable with military/commercial commands where it could take well over a year for a round trip message to happen. What was different in the mind of a chinese emperor compared to a European king? I can see it not being worth the trouble of having a Chinese Africa Company, but to have a basic philosophy insisting on strong central control of things so far away seems odd.
A single mission with that kind of lag time? sure.

A colony of (necessarily) independent minded cusses who aren't under your direct thumb? not so much.

Note that when the French ruled Canada they tried hard to prohibit fur traders going long ways inland - it meant they were out of the control of the Church and the Governor.... So it's not just an 'inscrutable Oriental' thing, at all.
 
That indeed did happen under the Mongols.

The Yuan was not declared until 1271 under Kublai Khan's rule, and although the political divisions initially occurred in 1227, after Genghis Khan's death, the empire was split among multiple rulers by the time that Ogodei Khan's died in 1241. The Mongols did conquer the Jin in 1234, so it technically controlled a significant portion of China by then. However, after reunifying China, the administration and laws were implemented separately in each region according to Jin and Song customs, while the Han Chinese were generally discriminated against. This suggests that the Mongols considered China as a subjugated state, rather than considering itself as a direct successor to the Song.

Other than that, generally speaking, it would be extremely difficult to expand further than Talas due to logistical reasons. Although it could theoretically maintain temporary control over areas further west, the generals assigned to each protectorate would be independent enough to revolt or split away from the government, similar to what occurred in the An Shi Rebellion. It's also important to realize that China's current borders are mostly due to the Qing's expeditions into Xinjiang/East Turkestan and Tibet. Although the Manchus were gradually assimilated into Chinese culture to the point of eventually losing their cultural identity, the rulers still pursued harsh policies towards the Han Chinese.
 
I'd say the best bet would be a China more cohesive than it was in OTL and one that could contain the Steppe people, remember a lot of intelligence was going toward that side of the globe and for good reason. You would also need a bump in the overall wealth of the country. Especially wealth going increasingly toward the merchant class. In traditional Confucianist society merchants were looked down upon as the lowest of the classes. This only began to change in the Ming and the Qing when wealth, especially the influx of Mexican silver remember China ran off silver, began to flow into the merchant classes and they could afford to buy ranks and degrees and fit into "proper" classed society or the idle rich.
 
Top