How far could Vinland grow?

Would there be any possibility of native integration, with perhaps a merged skraeling/norse culture arising? (Somewhat similar to what happened to European culture when it came to the new world, but to a much greater degree given the comparative populations of the settlers to the natives)

Not with the Beothuks, I would say. The Beothuks were a very reluctant people to take on new technologies or even interact willingly with outsiders in OTL.

Now, that does not rule out other Native American cultural groups. Maybe the Mikmaq. I doubt that the Iroquois would engage in such merging much.
 
Weren't the norse particularly adventurous? In Europe they ended up in places like Sicily.

I can see a succesful Vinland having tons of explorers sailing down the St. Lawrance and exploring the coast of NA. If they brought cattle then butterflies can potentially change the development of the entire continent.

I just can see a couple of Vinlandic outposts in the Caribbean.
 
As far as what territory the Norse would occupy if a long-term settlement did get established, they would probably take an islands-first approach. Why? They've done it before, rather successfully. Take a look at this map of the Kingdom of Man and the Isles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kingdom_of_Mann_and_the_Isles-en.svg
Yes, but for a reason.
They were dealing in Europe with native opponents who were numerous, dangerous and moved well on land - but inefficient on water.
The Skraelings are much less numerous. And they travel by canoe, too. So the Norse do not have the same danger in settling on mainland, and for the level of danger they do pose, narrow straits of water are not so much a relative protection.
Now compare it to this map of the Gulf of St. Lawrence:

http://mappingcenter.esri.com/index.cfm?fa=maps.stLawrence&effect=View PDF

I would expect that they would set up shop on St. Pierre and Miquelon early on. They likely would eventually take over all of Newfoundland, but perhaps not before they take Anticosti Island, Prince Edward Island, the Magdalen Islands, and Cape Breton Island.
IMO, they are not particularly attractive for Norse. They offer nothing Newfoundland does not already have.
Once they have these and Newfoundland, then a push onto the mainland begins, and it would almost certainly involve exploration up the St. Lawrence. For the Norse, water is a connector, a highway, not much of a barrier at all. Any established presence would expand outward from these island bases.
Water is a connector. What is a barrier is rapids.

The Norse would sail as far as Lachine rapids. Their ships cannot go on.

On Atlantic coast, they can simply sail on to next inlet, river, bay, on their same knarrs, as far as Florida and Yucatan. Not on St. Lawrence.

They want to go on. There is the huge market of Great Lakes and Mississippi Culture beyond Lachine.

So the Norse have to get off their high ships - explore the shores, chop a portage road through the forests and around rocks, beach their knarrs and build new, smaller river bateaux above the rapids. And they have to negotiate with the neighbouring Skraelings so they would not get ambushed while stuck on portage.

Montreal is where they need to settle - which they do not need on Gulf of St. Lawrence or Atlantic coast.

Mind you, islands still have an advantage. The island of Montreal is not defensible. A determined Skraeling war party on a raid would easily row their canoes across the narrow rivers anywhere along the tens of km of island shores, and the small bunch of Norse could not even keep watchmen to alert them of crossing, let alone post an overwhelming defensive force at whatever spot the Skraelings do cross at. But the island is demarcable. If the Skraelings negotiate with Norse and promise not to trespass on the island then they cannot go hunting on Norse cows grazing on the island and when confronted, claim to have got lost chasing a moose. Nor can they bring complaints of Icelandic horses trespassing to eat their maize fields if the horses are known not to swim St. Lawrence just for greener pastures.

So... how about a bunch of Norse buying/renting the whole island of Montreal? The local Skraelings can keep their maize fields across the river, they will not be molested by Norse sheep grazing on their fields and they get some rent for the deal, like mutton, cheese, butter, iron axes... and in addition to Isle of Montreal, they allow the Norse to sail on to lake Ontario, trade on both sides of river and get Skraeling guides and interpreters on their trading expeditions. Would the Norse do that?
 
Yes, but for a reason.
They were dealing in Europe with native opponents who were numerous, dangerous and moved well on land - but inefficient on water.
The Skraelings are much less numerous. And they travel by canoe, too. So the Norse do not have the same danger in settling on mainland, and for the level of danger they do pose, narrow straits of water are not so much a relative protection.

Well, the Native Americans were able to give the English settlers a good run for their money; look at, for instance, King Phillip's War.

That said, I wonder if you'd see Norse societies developing differently depending on where they were; Iceland, with no threats or enemies, was a freewheeling "republic". The Isle of Man, with potential threats around, became a kingdom.

They want to go on. There is the huge market of Great Lakes and Mississippi Culture beyond Lachine.

Huge is relative, no? Cahokia's poulation maxed out at around 15,000.

But would these portgages be that different than those in Russia?
 
Weren't the norse particularly adventurous? In Europe they ended up in places like Sicily.

I can see a succesful Vinland having tons of explorers sailing down the St. Lawrance and exploring the coast of NA. If they brought cattle then butterflies can potentially change the development of the entire continent.

I just can see a couple of Vinlandic outposts in the Caribbean.

That's because they were trading/plundering people/lands that had much nicer things then they had back home. Vinland may be a step down from Scandinavia.
 
Would the correct adjective be "Vinlander" or "Vinlandic"?

Vinlenzki, I think.

Edit:

Ja. Compare Islenski, icelandic for 'icelandic'.

The 'z' is a 'ts' sound, 'a' mutates to 'e' due to the following 'i'. D+s gives 'z'. The ending is 'ski', the icelandic version of the IndoEuropean 'sk' adjectival ending, cf Russian -skii, Greek -iskos, English -ish.
 
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The Norse Greenland settlements were dead ends in every meaning of the phrase. They led to nothing, they resulted in nothing, and, when they died out in a whimper, they did so alone and all but forgotten.

Except they gave europe knowledge of the americas...including a certain captain who spent time in iceland who sailed in 1492... ;) But minor details...
 
Well, the Native Americans were able to give the English settlers a good run for their money; look at, for instance, King Phillip's War.
Yes, but these were southern maize growers.

The French also had trouble with maize growing Iroquois League. Not so much with hunter-gatherer Montagnais of St. Lawrence or Mikmaq of Acadia.

That said, I wonder if you'd see Norse societies developing differently depending on where they were; Iceland, with no threats or enemies, was a freewheeling "republic". The Isle of Man, with potential threats around, became a kingdom.
Yes - divergences can be expected.

One obvious dichotomy is between the southern Skraeling lands who grow maize and are numerous, and northern Skraeling lands that are too cold for maize and therefore are hunter-gatherers.

The 17th century English and French came from warm countries. Canada was an icy hellhole for them. There was a reason the English did not settle north of New England in 17th century. So the lands too cold for maize were also too cold for English.

Whereas the Greenland Norse already know cold winters at home. In Canada, they find warmer and longer summers than Greenland - unlike 17th century English or French the cold of the lands too cold for maize is not deterrent for Norse farmers. Whereas the numerous Skraeling population of the lands warm enough for maize is a deterrent for them.
But would these portgages be that different than those in Russia?
Somewhat.
In Russia, the local Fennougrians and Slavs grew the same crops, kept the same domestic animals and wrought the same metals. The technological margins of Norse were not that big.

In Vinland, the Skraelings do not have metal smelting, grazing animals or cold tolerant crops.

In Russia, the Norse built their first settlement at Ladoga - the first rapid they could not sail through. In Vinland, the Norse would settle at Montreal for the same reason.

I have heard that the maize growing agriculture expanded appreciably northwards between 11th and 16th century. If so, the Norse might find Montreal of 11th century devoid of maize farmers and occupied by pure hunter-gatherers.
 
In Russia, the local Fennougrians and Slavs grew the same crops, kept the same domestic animals and wrought the same metals. The technological margins of Norse were not that big.

In Vinland, the Skraelings do not have metal smelting, grazing animals or cold tolerant crops.

In Russia, the Norse built their first settlement at Ladoga - the first rapid they could not sail through. In Vinland, the Norse would settle at Montreal for the same reason.

Well. Actually, the *Finns grey mostly barley, the Slavs grew rye and oats. Slavs in the south grew wheat. The agricultural packages had lots of overlap but wasn't exactly the same.

In the long term the Slavs colonised the Finnic lands, of course (say between the 8th and 16th c. the process was pretty complete). Part of it was the forced agriculture shift, even though barley was more cold-resistant.

Don't know where I'm going with this, someone may find this information useful :p
 
Does anyone know offhand what the main agricultural package was for the Norse in Greenland and Iceland in the 10th and 11th centuries? Was the main cereal crop barley?

The main agricultural package was sheep. Seriously. Iceland in the Commomwealth era grew about enough barley to make beer with - and since they did use some for bread / porridge, they had to import the rest.

In Iceland, probably the ONLY place in mediaeval europe, the price of a pound of meat, a pound of flour and a pound of butter were all the same!!! And that's during the mediaeval warm period!

They probably grew a bit of rye, too.

'Good agricultural land' in Iceland is where you can graze cattle (as opposed to sheep).
 
I halfheartedly tried to look around on the old internet for something on the extent to which the Mikmaq adopted European farming in OTL, and what little I found indicates that they essentially didn't. (Anyone know any different?) That would make it more likely than not that they would not adopt it from Vinlanders, either. It makes it less likely that there would be significant hybridizing of these peoples, in my opinion. Hunter-gatherers live a very different lifestyle from farmers, some would say an incompatible one. Such groups have tended to look down on one another (not always, though).

Thoughts on this?
 
An interesting though is the new study that just came out this week were it seems that after the farmers moved into Europe the co existed with the local hunter gathers for 2000 years. For those interested go to Dienekes's anthro blog.
 
new member 1st post pls be kind

Nothing here for >1 yr. Haven't read all posts; just reflecting on the premise. It seems to me that if the Norse had pushed further south, they may have been successful, as in Iceland. This could have happened in several ways & for several reasons; realising the need to cooperate with natives, obtaining wood for building more ships &c.
This is not implausible: they eventually settled alongside the English & Franks, among others.
Implications for Europe might include no Viking invasions of England & France, so no Norman Conquest, since there is a New World outlet to relieve population pressure; survival of Greenland colonies, as a staging post if nothing else; better maps for Columbus, who might even have realised he couldn't (easily) reach the East Indies by sailing west, hence no Treaty of Tordesillas - loads of ATLs there; totally different history of European colonisation, all earlier & with less advanced tech. Best of all - no GHW Bush & no C&W.
 
New post so being kind :)

Probably best to start a new thread and link to this one. Necro-posting isn't something that the mods like (I'm not sure I understand why).

Interesting you should resurrect this thread tho, because I'm re-investigating my Vinland ideas.
 
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