How far could the captured French Navy makes a difference?

I suspect a "captured" French navy would have mostly languished in harbor as it was eventually scavenged for guns and other equipment for German shore batteries an the like.

A more interesting option woild be a Vichy French Navy that was allied with Germany. That would eliminate the problems of mixed armament and crews.
 

Cook

Banned
The problem with this is oil. Battleships take a lot of it, and the European Axis couldn't fuel the ships they had after Barbarossa.
The Italian fleet were conducting convoys to North Africa with Battleships in the escorts as late as October 1942.
Overall Dunkirk is an important morale victory, but militarily it only gave the British several hundred thousand men lacking any equipment.
It rescued almost the entire professional British army, the core of the force that retook the continent four years later. Had they not escaped from the Germans the British would not have had the experienced commanders (right down to senior NCOs) that are absolutely essential just to train up a new army, let alone direct its fighting.
The French ships were all designed for the mediteranean Sea and therefore short ranged, so hardly suitable for oceanic deployement.
They had no difficulty reaching Dakar, they ships that drove off the British landings in September 1940 had run the Straits of Gibraltar with no difficulty only a few days earlier. And Vichy French food convoys to and from the United States were escorted by Vichy warships to prevent interference by the Royal Navy.
I suspect a "captured" French navy would have mostly languished in harbor...
The Germans made very good use of captured French tanks and artillery, I’d expect them to do the same with ships.

The best people to handle French ships are of course the French themselves; Darlan directing a more active role in the war wouldn’t be a stretch at all.
 
The Germans made very good use of captured French tanks and artillery, I’d expect them to do the same with ships.
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True, but tanks and artillery fit well within the German military priorities and needs. The Nazis were at best lukewarm on heavy surface ships. I suspect that any "captured" French ships would become regular targets of the RAF and (as opposed to the British attacks on French ships after the armistice), All French factions would have no problem with this.
 
Vichy France was in a rather limited (by WWII standards) war with the UK. So escalating that war and having the French ships in more defensible positions at the time of the armistice would put those ships in the Axis side.
 
In the long run, it helps the British.

Why? You ask how does a bunch of French ships joining the Axis help the British?!?!?

Here's how: Yes, I know the French drove the British off from Dakar, but that was a limited force.

1. No one was more prepared to fight the last war than the British Admiralty, and no navy was more representative of the last war than the French Navy.
2. Whatever their other limitations, I have no doubt that the British admirals could have managed a 'line of battle' fight against the French just fine - in which case HMS Nelson beats MN Bretagne every day and twice on Sunday.
3. Such a victory - if had during the summer of 1940 - boosts British morale at a time it needed it badly.
4. The destruction of the French battleline - such as it was - eliminated the Vichy Navy as a threat - i.e. the 'fleet in being' aspect of it is gone. That means the British have more resources to deploy to othyer places.

Mike Turcotte
 
The Italian fleet were conducting convoys to North Africa with Battleships in the escorts as late as October 1942.

Do you recall which Italian battleship(s) were involved in this? I spot-checked the histories of the Italian battleships and didn't find any reference to any of them being in action after June 1942. After mid-1942 Italy basically took their four modernized World War I battleships out of line of battle because of lack of fuel and used their two (three counting Roma) Vittorio Veneto class battleships as extra anti-aircraft batteries for port cities for the same reason.

Are you claiming that the Italian battleships weren't constrained by lack of fuel until late in 1942? Are you claiming that the Axis had ample fuel to operate the French battleships along with their own through most of 1942?
 
Vichy France was in a rather limited (by WWII standards) war with the UK. So escalating that war and having the French ships in more defensible positions at the time of the armistice would put those ships in the Axis side.
Vichy France only started fighting the Allies after the attack on Mers-el-Kébir, if the Germans sieze the ships, then this little event is butterflied away.

I've wondered, what would have happened if Darlan had been given the full version of the ultimatum and had accepted it and sailed for the US?
 
Vichy France only started fighting the Allies after the attack on Mers-el-Kébir, if the Germans sieze the ships, then this little event is butterflied away.

I've wondered, what would have happened if Darlan had been given the full version of the ultimatum and had accepted it and sailed for the US?

Could we have an event where a combined German and Italian squadrons (including bombers?) sent to Mers-el-Kébir end up fighting on the same side as the Vichy French after their timing there coincided with the British attack?
 
It's true that finding crews for the captured French ships would have been a problem. Maybe they could have been partially manned by the French themselves, with Germans in key positions to keep an eye on things? Many of the French mariners would have resented this conscription, but would they have dared to mutiny? Loyal service would have guaranteed that neither they nor their families back in France would go hungry, while dereliction would have been ruthlessly punished, as an example to everyone else. And their loved ones (or many of them) were effectively hostages of the Germans.
 
It's true that finding crews for the captured French ships would have been a problem. Maybe they could have been partially manned by the French themselves, with Germans in key positions to keep an eye on things? Many of the French mariners would have resented this conscription, but would they have dared to mutiny? Loyal service would have guaranteed that neither they nor their families back in France would go hungry, while dereliction would have been ruthlessly punished, as an example to everyone else. And their loved ones (or many of them) were effectively hostages of the Germans.
There's a lot more ways of resisting than just grabbing a gun, and if the Germans tried to force the French to man the ships, well I doubt the ships would ever have been in good enough repair to leave harbour.
 
There's a lot more ways of resisting than just grabbing a gun, and if the Germans tried to force the French to man the ships, well I doubt the ships would ever have been in good enough repair to leave harbour.

I agree. I can totally see a lot of little "accidents" and "malfunctions" hampering the German quest to have the French battle line obliterated by the British.
 
DaleCoz is right when he mentions short fuel supplies, this will have an effect on just how much you can do with these ships.

The best way to man them is to somehow convince the French crews to continue to fight the British. After Mers-el-Kabir that might not be too hard but without that it'd be a hard sell...
 
DThe best way to man them is to somehow convince the French crews to continue to fight the British. After Mers-el-Kabir that might not be too hard but without that it'd be a hard sell...
If the Germans capture the ships there will be no Mers-el-Kébir.
 
If the Germans capture the ships there will be no Mers-el-Kébir.

What if that knowing the Germans are going to capture it the British decided to wait until the process began and in the process of capturing the ships the British suddenly attacks? Hoping to destroy both, the British finds the French fleet and Germany fighting on the same side.
 
Vichy France only started fighting the Allies after the attack on Mers-el-Kébir, if the Germans sieze the ships, then this little event is butterflied away.
I was thinking about: Germans not trying to seize the ships, the UK attacks as in OTL, but the situation escalates more than OTL. However, getting it to escalate is tough.
 
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