How far could Russia go into Roman larp?

[Gukpard]

OTL Russia followed the Carolingean tradition of making their monarch have the title of ruler of rome but not restoring the roman empire or anything. I was wondering how far could Russia go if it had a monarch like Ferdinand the great of Bulgaria who was like "I'm basically Roman now".

The first thing would be to add Russo-Roman names for stuff, so instead of naming the country "Russia" the Czar could name it something like "Rimskaya" that is the Russian title for "Roman", then rename the Zemsky Sobor to the "Senat", call the russian armed formations as Legions, etc.

Also "Rimskaya" might not be the correct word, what could it be? And how Roman can we make Russia?

 

[Mildtryth]

It depends on which kind of Roman you want it to be - the original Romans, it doesn't seem too likely, but the Eastern Romans? that was something Tsarist Russia already did to a certain extent.

 

[Gukpard]

It depends on which kind of Roman you want it to be - the original Romans, it doesn't seem too likely, but the Eastern Romans? that was something Tsarist Russia already did to a certain extent.

The eastern romans, yes, how can far it go?

 

[EWHM]

The eastern romans, yes, how can far it go?

A lot further if you take Constantinople.

 

[JanWellem]

A lot further if you take Constantinople.

Czargrad.

 

[EWHM]

Czargrad.

New Rome or Byzantium Redux. All hail the new Emperor of the restored Roman Empire.

 

[Sceonn]

A surviving Byzantine means a more Roman Russia.

 

[Aluma]

The first thing would be to add Russo-Roman names for stuff, so instead of naming the country "Russia" the Czar could name it something like "Rimskaya" that is the Russian title for "Roman", then rename the Zemsky Sobor to the "Senat", call the russian armed formations as Legions, etc.

I will note that there was already the medieval latin name Ruthenia for Russia and Russia itself existed in byzantine greek as Rhosia, both which are perfectly "roman" names for it
If not that then I believe Russia would just go by Eastern Rome like in the A Long 19th Century TL as they already claimed to succeed it

 

[Gukpard]

I will note that there was already the medieval latin name Ruthenia for Russia and Russia itself existed in byzantine greek as Rhosia, both which are perfectly "roman" names for it
If not that then I believe Russia would just go by Eastern Rome like in the A Long 19th Century TL as they already claimed to succeed it

What about Rhuma? The Empire of Rhuma with a Czar Autokrator

 

[Aluma]

What about Rhuma? The Empire of Rhuma with a Czar Autokrator

Or Basileus for that matter

 

[alexmilman]

What about Rhuma? The Empire of Rhuma with a Czar Autokrator

To start with, which title are you talking about? “Caesar” (царь) or “Emperor”? If, as seems to be the case, you are talking about “emperor”, then the reference to the Roman Empire is irrelevant because by the obvious political reasons such reference would result in strong objections both from the HRE and the OE. At the time the title was adopted the purpose was to be “European” so the western “Rossia” (Россия) had been adopted. Using at that point some Byzantine-style namings would go against the whole idea.

“Czar“, while going back to the Roman times, had been referencing to the Mongols: ruler of the GH was traditionally referenced this way and was adopted after conquest of the Tsardoms of Kazan and Astrakhan. With no analogies in Europe this title did not raise any hackles but was pretty much ignored and the Russian Czars had been routinely referenced as the Grand Dukes all the way to the late XVII.

 

[Aluma]

At the time the title was adopted the purpose was to be “European” so the western “Rossia” (Россия) had been adopted. Using at that point some Byzantine-style namings would go against the whole idea.

Thats fair, but maybe he wants to butterfly away OTL occidentalism in favour of the whole Third Rome thing?
Would probably have to get rid of Petey-boy at very least I think

 

[alexmilman]

Thats fair, but maybe he wants to butterfly away OTL occidentalism in favour of the whole Third Rome thing?
Would probably have to get rid of Petey-boy at very least I think

AFAIK, for all practical purposes the 3R thingy was pretty much dead before Peter was born with the westernization process being well under the way. This was not a royal capris but an objective need to pick up the western technology and military practices. Alternative was to be repeatedly beaten by the Poles with the substantial territorial losses.

 

[Aluma]

Alternative was to be repeatedly beaten by the Poles with the substantial territorial losses.

Goddamn it Poland

Imagining that happening feels like a meme considering how OTL went

 

[Gukpard]

To start with, which title are you talking about? “Caesar” (царь) or “Emperor”? If, as seems to be the case, you are talking about “emperor”, then the reference to the Roman Empire is irrelevant because by the obvious political reasons such reference would result in strong objections both from the HRE and the OE. At the time the title was adopted the purpose was to be “European” so the western “Rossia” (Россия) had been adopted. Using at that point some Byzantine-style namings would go against the whole idea.

“Czar“, while going back to the Roman times, had been referencing to the Mongols: ruler of the GH was traditionally referenced this way and was adopted after conquest of the Tsardoms of Kazan and Astrakhan. With no analogies in Europe this title did not raise any hackles but was pretty much ignored and the Russian Czars had been routinely referenced as the Grand Dukes all the way to the late XVII.

Eh, let's say that they go for Czar inspiring themselves not from the order but from the Eastern Romans.

Anyway, how far do you think that could go? Do Rhuma make sense as a name for this Russia?

 

[alexmilman]

Eh, let's say that they go for Czar inspiring themselves not from the order but from the Eastern Romans.

As I said, “Tsar” was creating the protocol issues lowering position of the ruler to one of the Grand Duke, which was humiliating and caused problems in international relations. By the time this became an issue the Eastern Romans hardly were an inspiring example.

Anyway, how far do you think that could go? Do Rhuma make sense as a name for this Russia?

Not IMO. Historically, it was “Rus” and “Rossia” was its latinized form. The country was going west, not east.

 

[Gukpard]

As I said, “Tsar” was creating the protocol issues lowering position of the ruler to one of the Grand Duke, which was humiliating and caused problems in international relations. By the time this became an issue the Eastern Romans hardly were an inspiring example.

Not IMO. Historically, it was “Rus” and “Rossia” was its latinized form. The country was going west, not east.

Let's prevent the fall of the eastern roman empire just for this exercise.

What happens in this case? What name could a Roman Russian Empire have?

 

[Pauh the federalist]

OTL Russia followed the Carolingean tradition of making their monarch have the title of ruler of rome but not restoring the roman empire or anything. I was wondering how far could Russia go if it had a monarch like Ferdinand the great of Bulgaria who was like "I'm basically Roman now".

The first thing would be to add Russo-Roman names for stuff, so instead of naming the country "Russia" the Czar could name it something like "Rimskaya" that is the Russian title for "Roman", then rename the Zemsky Sobor to the "Senat", call the russian armed formations as Legions, etc.

Also "Rimskaya" might not be the correct word, what could it be? And how Roman can we make Russia?

In the Napoleonic wars during a high point of French Russian relations (Possibly post Tilsit) have Russia come to a agreement with France to sign a full "alliance of the two emperors" and recognize each other as successors to Rome (France being the successor to the western empire, and Russia being the successor to the eastern empire.) and throw their lot in with France in exchange for them committing to a partition and invasion of the ottoman empire where Russia is assigned a spear of influence over orthodox Europe and Anatolia and in exchange for Russia waiving its rights to the African and levant territory's of the eastern roman empire to the French spear of influence Russia would be compensated with Poland, leaving Russia in control of most of the slavs of Europe along with the continents orthodox population and lands traditionally associated with Greece extending into Anatolia satisfying both pan Slavism and key religious and geographic concerns of legitimacy to the title of successor to the eastern roman empire. (possibly follow this up with a transition to Constantinople as the new Russian capital in a few years to further cement the legitimacy of the roman larp.)

Treaties of Tilsit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jiraiyathegallant]

Russia and the US both stood as gigantic countries with staggering potential before WWI. They went on to functionally partition Europe after WWII, but Russia took far higher losses along the way than America and only ran into more problems from there.

If we can create an environment where we have Britain, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, and the Ottoman Empire wreck each other in two wars of near tots annihilation again, but have Russia sit out until the end, Russia could potentially occupy or control most of Europe and the Ottoman Empire’s Asian colonies.

Even Ottoman Empire was a quarter Christian with a total population (Christian, Muslim, and everything else combined) below Ukraine before WWI.

Russia taking over parts of Eastern Europe and most of the Ottoman Empire in ATL WWI is doable. If a brutal WWII happens next while Russia avoids the brunt of it and receives the benefits, Russia could get the Balkans and Central Europe under direct control.

Trade agreements and financial control could be established in the aftermath of the wars for Russia to dominate much of Western Europe. If Italy breaks apart ITTL or gets occupied by Russia, Russia might be able to control Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch and unify the Church.

At that point they could lean into it as much as they want along as it doesn’t destroy the empire. The rest of Europe will be empty husks, the Ottoman Empire’s territory might be majority Christian, and everything else in NW Africa can be ignored or held down by force or by proxies like France and Spain.

Would anyone be able to tell Russia that it isn’t Rome ITTL?