How far back a POD is needed for language difference

I actually was thinking Yiddish as a big language but it was already pointed out that has already happened. Also a Prussian language splitting off from German. And the Czech languages (Czech, Slovak, Moravian, etc) merging or staying as a single language if Bohemia managed to stay independent from Austria and grow into a local central eastern power. And a sort of Gaelic language appearing in the Americas (similar to how Afrikaans split from Dutch). POD is about 500 years ago.

Would this Prussian be a survival of the old Baltic language or a dialect of German that grew up in the area. The second actually happened in OTL, a Low German dialect called Low Prussian

Don't know enough to say about Bohemian. Presumably the dialect of Prague would become the standard and Moravian and Slovak would regarded as country dialects and could disappear.

As for an American Gaelic it sort of happened in OTL too: Canadian Gaelic
 
To seperate Northern and Southern Germany into two official languages I could imagine few PODs, but they are very far back. Essentially, I assume that Low German would have to be promoted by political or cultural developments even before German proto-nationalism. Examples:
a) the Hanse evolving throughout early modern times into a politically and economically successful federation uniting the costal cities and their Hinterland from Emden to Danzig or even Riga, establishing an own language shifting away from what the Southeners understand.
b) Martin Luther being born farther north. He grew up just a few miles south of the defining line between Low and Middle German, thus his language-defining work, the first step towards a German standard language, was written in East-Middle-German, an amalgam of Lower and Higher German, thereforeaccessible to Northerners and Southerners.

Assume Luther would have been raised a bit further north, in Hannover or Schwerin. His translation of the bible might still have had its language-defining impact ; albeit only where his tongue is understood. South of Dortmund or Berlin, it would have been irrelevant.


However, if today's Southern Germans e.g. from Bavaria or Württemberg and Northern Germans e.g. from the Northern parts of Lower Saxony would try to communicate with each other using their dialects instead of Standard German, they would be mutually unintelligible. Germany is a far more tribal society than it seems from the outside.
I don't think you need to go back very far.

Actually, it would be fairly easy for the Platt speaking Calvinists to have used a Platt bible while the Hoch speaking Lutherans used Luther's. You could easily have at least 2 'German's that way.

Or if the Swiss decided not to use Luther's bible, but to use Swiss German. I talked to a friend of my Dad's who swore that the first foreign language she learned in school was Hoch (she was Swiss German).

If Alsace-Lorraine was split off as a buffer state, you could have a separate Alemannic German (Elsaessisch?)


You could even have two Hoch dialects labeled as 'languages' - one Lutheran (based on Luther's translation, essentially Saxon), and one Catholic - based either on Bavarian or Austrian. (Verhochdeutsch?)
 
You could have a situation like in Orson Scott Card's 'Alvin the Maker' series, where 'American' is considered a different language than 'English'. Noah Webster's dictionary shows a language trivially different from British English, but e.g. Andrew Jackson's writing is ... not quite so British - shall we say.
 

Deleted member 5719

I guess it depends how vicious you're prepared to be.
Back in the dark ages you can change the language of a area in a century or so.
Just kill all the natives and move in some new people.
As we move towards modern times though this becomes less and less acceptable and the gap builds.

That has actually happened a lot more in modern times than in the medieval period. I can't think of a pre 1700 example, but it happened a lot in the 19th century.
 

Susano

Banned
maybe a surviving state of the Teutonic Knights which puts less and less emphasis on being German but gradually becomes a Baltic nation state.
Fixed. Its bad enough when the anglophones make the mistake ;) Though Teutonci Order/Knights is unfortunately the name the order is most well known as in English...

To seperate Northern and Southern Germany into two official languages I could imagine few PODs, but they are very far back.
I dont necessarily think so. Lower and Upper German are different enough to very well form two different languages. The only thing thats needed is some sort of political impetus. To gain that would require some changes... I dont think any such impetus can arise in post-1815 Europe... but one doesnt need to go back to Hansa and Luther. Some changes in the very tumultous French Revolutionary and Napoleonic period could be enough, I think.

Germany is a far more tribal society than it seems from the outside.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Youre not helping my cause here :p
Its nonsense (the conclusion, that is - the mutual non-intelligibility is a fact, of course), and besides as said, dialects are continously retreating anyways, so a North German and a South German will be most likely to use Standard German these days anyways, and hence understand each other.
 
I actually was thinking Yiddish as a big language but it was already pointed out that has already happened. Also a Prussian language splitting off from German. And the Czech languages (Czech, Slovak, Moravian, etc) merging or staying as a single language if Bohemia managed to stay independent from Austria and grow into a local central eastern power. And a sort of Gaelic language appearing in the Americas (similar to how Afrikaans split from Dutch). POD is about 500 years ago.

But I was over all just curious on the topic and wanted to see a discussion on it.

Ok to summarize everyone's points:


  • Yiddish can be maintained if there is no modern establishment of Israel
  • A Prussian German can be established based off a Low German dialect if High German has less status in Prussia. Maybe there could be a Prussia-Pommerania state that used to be dominated by Scandinavians
  • We can get a standard "czechoslovak" language by Bohemia being dominant over or independent of Austria - in the former I'd suggest some form of bilingualism of a German Language and the Prague West Slavic
  • A North American or other colonial Gaelic can be formed but will need some political autonomy to be maintained, most likely through official bilingualism a la Quebecois
Do these help?
 
My great grandmother apparently still had a reasonable understanding of Scots Gaelic and she died young in the late 1950s - if I recall correctly she was the grandchild of migrants (second generation?). She managed to pass a fragmentary vocab to my grandmother, which wasn't passed any further down.
 
Good idea, but give me a proper POD!

Some changes in the very tumultous French Revolutionary and Napoleonic period could be enough, I think.

The timeframe would be OK, but I cannot muster the imagination to think of a development in this era which results in a German language-split. Pity!
After all, it was in this time that the idea of German nationalism really gained momentum. I can rather imagine a Frenchification in the annexed regions of the North and West in case of a continued French hegemony.

How about a POD in the 30-years-war, maybe a strategic Swedish victory bringing the Holy Roman Empire to collapse à la 1806 and afterwards Germany would be divided politically for a longer time along the confessional/language border (they match only when seen from very, very distant) into a Swedish and a Habsburg sphere of influence.

So a North German and a South German will be most likely to use Standard German these days anyways, and hence understand each other.

Of course - I constructed a situation where both participants deliberately use their own dialects. I personally wouldn't be able to talk in a way that other Germans couldn't understand a word of what I am saying.

Greetings to the Taunus!
 

Susano

Banned
Greetings back to Westphalia ;)

Well, as said its all about political impetus. Two scenarios for a Lower German language with Napoleonic PoD from off top of my head.
-The Netherlands gain much German territory (seeing how Napoleonic Holland and Napoleonic Uber-Berg were in personal union for a short while its at least possible, if not all too probable), and hence take part in the North German unification process, but of course without giving up the already established language of theirs. As a result, Dutch becomes the base for a general Lower German language.
-The Congress breaks down in animosity between the western powers and the eastern powers (a high probability if there are no 100 Days). There is no German Confederation and a sort of cold war between the two blocs. To remove Hannover as far as possible from Prussian or Austrian attempts to play at German nationalism, it begins to form an own language based on the Lower Saxon dialect.

My point is those time were such politcially tumultous, more or less anything could happen...
 
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