How do you make the middle ages more "aesthetically" Roman?

Bit of a weird one I know but:

When most people think Rome they think marble statues, togas, laurels, lots of red and gold, eagles etc. Generally a pretty "clean" aestethic. When most people think the (early to high) middle ages it's a lot of rough art, wooden buildings, simple and/modest clothing, eventually coats of arms that include a lot of stripes, squares and funky animals.

Now obviously aestethics vary and change over time, and we project a lot of conceptions about a time period in the aestethics we choose when we imagine them, we think of the roman era as a glorious and advanced era and thus imagine it with pompous and clean aestethics, while the middle ages are percieved to be more rough and harsh, but that's not really the point of this challenge.

How could the middle ages "look" more roman? Knights in red with aquilae embroidened, marble statues of saints and kings, kings and nobles wearing togas in court etc.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
There are several factors at work here. One banal example is that traditional Roman garb is juist unfit for Northern Europe. You want trousers, a wollen vest and some good boots during a Northern winter. You don't want to wear a toga and sandals. It just isn't practical. Since post-Roman Europe sees an increasing development of Northern Europe, certain changes on that front are going to be inevitable. Even if more Roman clothing stays more popular in Southern Europe, it's not going to be that way all over Europe.

As for architecture, art etc. ...One issue is the simple fact that the Roman collapse, and the increasing divergence of Western and Eastern Europe, led to a lack of availability when it came to certain products or ingedients (certain dyes, for instance, became far less easily available). Another issue is that the lack of the centralised Roman state apparatus (and the initial lack of suitably advances state organisations in other parts of Europe) meant that some projects could no longer be undertaken or financed. The simple fact that no one power controls a vast region means that no single government is planning a network of main roads, for instance. (And more modern communication and international co-operation were not yet feasible-- alhough in the later Middle Ages, there was far more of that than is sometimes assumed.) Architecturally, the increasing influence of non-Roman peoples who had never lived inside the Empire meant that there was increasingly less of a sense of "indebtedness" to the Roman way, and styles that owed little to Rome could arise. The same goes for art styles (and there, in particular, we see that Northern Europeans incorporated their own tastes and symbols very early on-- the Franks may have eventually claimed the Roman imperial title, but they weren't interested in looking like the old Romans.)

Then there is knowledge. In the posty-Roman world, this was mostly preserved by Christian authorities, for Christian purposes. The way information was presented served the interests of the Church, not the interests of the dead-and-gone Empire. Turning northern Europeans into good Christians was hard enough, and in many cases, the Church itself adapted a bit to be more acceptble to its new adherents. (Adapted, that is, in a way that automatically made the Church less Roman; less like the church it had been in the days of the Empire.) So why waste resources on an attempt to make Northen Europeans into good Romans, besides just good Christians, when the Church itself was actually becoming less (classically) Roman?

There are other factors besides these, but I've attempted to illustrate some mechanisms that were at work in this whole process. That way, we can begin to speculate on what would have to change, in order to make the Middle Ages "more Roman".

Firsts order of business: limit your ambitions to Southern Europe. Making Northern Europe more Roman isn't impossible, but the best way to achieve that is to keep "Romanity" stronger in the South, and hope that this will influence the tastes and sensibilities of the ATL North later on. What we want is less of a break with classical Rome, a more integrated state structure covering a greater mass of land, and a strong tie between that state and the Roman Church (so that the Church has a vested interest in being and staying truly "Roman"). So we want to avoid the Gothic Wars, is what I'm saying. Those are historically seen as the true beginning of the Middle Ages (and, one may say, of the much shorter period we might call the "Dark Ages"). Italy was devastated, what remained of Rome's legacy was no longer anybody's prime concern, and all-in-all there was a big break with the past. Much bigger than anything Odoacer ever did.

So prevent that. The barbarians who had invaded the Empire (who had actually been invited in, for the most part) were very interested in being as Roman as possible, early on. hat made them "legitimate". If we can prevent the whole mess-up, and ideally prevent Justinian from ever attempting re-conquest, we can aim for an ATL where this norm remains set. Where the post-Roman kings are actively interested in maintaining continuity. In an ideal scenario, we see a post-Roman, Germanic (but Romanised!) King achieve ever-greater dominance over what used to be the Western Roman Empire. This King should be formally a vassal of the Eastern Roman Emperor, and maintain cordial relations with Constantinople. This won't restore the WRE, and one may forget about taking Gaul back from the Franks, but Italy, Iberia and North(-West) Africa should be achievable. If some sort of "Kingdom of the Romans" can grow to cover that area, with the monarch theoretically ruling on behalf of the distant Emperor (which will just be a polite fiction)... then you're looking at a much more Roman ATL Southern Europe. This kingdom will automatically be the most organised and advanced state in Western Europe, which can be translated into cultural dominance. The Church, seated in Rome, will be much more interested in maintaining its Roman identity and its continuity with the imperial tradition.

We see here an ATL wherein Rome has less of a true "fall". The Empire decays and shrivels up, but instead of violent war and destructive anarchy, a new edifice takes its place. Less imposing, less powerful, but far more able to breathe some new life into the Roman tradition than anything that OTL produced. Southern Europeans can indeed wear togas and sandals in this ATL. Their architecture can deliberately be made to look like the classical Roman styles. Their symbols will be those of the Empire. All because of the prestige associated with them, and because they can be much more easily maintained/re-introduced in this ATL (with its greater continuity).

The effects on Northern Europe remain to be seen, of course. It could be that the Kingdom of the Romans is such a great centre of power that all of Europe will be greatly influenced by it in the end. It may also be that this more Roman state, with its more Roman church, will inspire greater anymosity in the North, and will be unable to spread its cultural dominance there. This can be a world where Southern Europe is far more Roman than in OTL, whereas Northern Europe is less Roman(-influenced). In a way, that in itself may count as a continuation of the way things were in Antiquity...
 
One banal example is that traditional Roman garb is juist unfit for Northern Europe. You want trousers, a wollen vest and some good boots during a Northern winter. You don't want to wear a toga and sandals. It just isn't practical.
Well one can imagine a vestigial form of the toga staying around as a sort of cloak over more appropriate tunic and pants.
 
Mabye an Italian centered HRE works with an Italian crowned by the Pope as Holy Roman Emperor? Or maybe a reformed Western Roman Empire would work? This Empire's border's would probably be much different that otl's HRE. And by the time of Charlemagne there were still Gallo Romans in Aquitaine. Maybe with the Isaurians the Exarchate of Ravenna has a Alexander the Great/Julius Casear level competent leader. Maybe this guy can restore the Ostrogoth kingdom borders. After the Iconoclast controversy the Exarchate of Ravenna seceded from the Byzantines for all intents and purposes. Maybe this Emperor rallies his men and the Romans in Italy against the Iconoclast heresy. He accepts the Crown by the Pope because the Patriarchate of Constantinople is vacant and held by a heretic and the Pope is scared of Desidrius and wants protection from the Lombards because the Byzantines were indisposed. This ruler then goes on to take over the Lombard domains by stunning military conquest or through marriage with a Lombard noble or princess. The Lombards at this point were Romanized with Desidrius the king of the Lombards having an obviously Roman name. This new Roman ruler now controls all of Italy as the Exarchate defect to him. Italy at this point though a shadow of its former self is still the richest part of Western Europe with it being more urbanized than that of Gaul which suffered the full brunt of the Age of Migrations and had centuries of neglect and the abandonment of Roman institutions and infrastructure. Its one of the reasons why the Franks couldn't centralize even if they wanted to. Most of Italy was still Roman or proto-Italian as many spoke Vulgar Latin which hadn't yet diverged into the various Romance languages. The North was mostly Germanic but by 700's the Germanic Lombard elites are seen to have adopted Roman customs like Roman garbs, names, and burial practices. And a POD with Leo the Isaurian on the Eastern Throne is perfect. Him dealing with the Arab incursions and the siege of Constantinople leaves what's left of Roman controlled Italy autonomous and when he proclaims Iconoduelism as a heresy this grants a chance for the Exarchate of Ravenna to split from the East. The coronation of this Roman as the new Western Augustus rather than emperor of Rome also allows the Byzantines to save face. When Charlemagne was crowned as emperor of Rome by Pope Stephanus he used the claim that the throne of the East was vacant. This also implied that an illiterate barbarian warlord (Franks weren't Romans like the Italians or Greeks) now had claim to their legacy and the throne of Constantinople was unthinkable for the Byzantines. A Latin Roman however proclaiming a Western Augustus from Ravenna would be more palatable as it was in the Byzantine's view actual Romans proclaiming a Western Augustus. The East would also have bigger fish to fry and Leo the Isaurian would probably be relieved in away as he now had one less frontier for manage. (He also neglected the West during his reign).

Now how would this empire develop?
I'm not quite sure. But the most logical outcome to me is that there is a more accelerated Italianization/Romanization of the Lombard elite and populace who spoke Latin or a Germanic dialect of Vulgar Latin. This new Emperor would probably focus on consolidating his hold on Italy and rebuilding its infrastructure and cities. Rebuilding Rome's aqueducts for example would be something of high priority. Rome most likely would be the ceremonial capital of the realm but under de-facto control of the Pope. Many Iconoduel Byzantines fleeing to the West to escape a crackdown by Leo or moving away in protest of his policies also increase the intellectuals withing the empire. Maybe the Western Emperor can use these institutions and the Church to re-introduce a form of social welfare and higher learning to populace of Italy. The Church gains immense power but works side by side with the Western Augustus. But because this emperor is seen as a true Western Augustus and is in Italy unlike the HRE's rulers whose center of power was Gaul or Germany the emperor is able to assert his secular authority over the pope. Thus a form of Caesero-papism emerges in Italy that mirrors the Byzantines with the pope having a little bit more power and a say in government. Most likely it will be comparable to the role of St. Ambrose the Bishop of Milan with the government of Valentinian III. The emperor after decades of rebuilding Italy and its forces begins to create a fleet as well to protect against the Saracen pirates to the South. He would also have to contend with Charlemagne or the Franks who might try and invade Italy. Maybe to avoid this the Pope might be able to work something out. Or Karloman doesn't die on schedule and wars with Charlemagne. There were tensions between these two brothers over control of all Francia and if civil war erupts between the two the Romans might be able to play these two off each other during periods of division. Most likely the Romans would eventually try to take Carthage when their economy recovers enough to fund miltary expenditures as North Africa was conquered by the Arabs and Carthage was destroyed by the Arab and Bedouin forces. The city of Tunis was erected 10 miles away from the site of Carthage. The Arabs did face Bedouin revolts, and maybe a particularly large revolt drains both sides and in the midst of the fighting the Romans come in by surprise and start a slow re-conquest of Africa to gain access to its Granaries. Though this process would take many decades or perhaps over a century seeing how Italy was utterly devastated by the Gothic Wars. Perhaps they might cooperate with the Byzantine on this against the Arabs. Another area of expansion for the Roman and cooperation with the Byzantines would be against the Slavs. The West historically held most of Illyria and would want to retake that land and ideally restore the Ostorgothic borders. Perhaps when the slavs start raiding the Byzantine coastal enclaves the Romans of the West invade and sieze their land. Though I don't know how successful this would be.

This restored Western Roman Empire might create a more standard Vulgar Latin since there would be a united Latin Italy to arrest the development of the various Romance Languages. And its cultural power and soft power would probably spread to Francia and Visigothic Spain as a reformed and resurgent Western Empire would economically dominate Western Europe. Its coins would also widely circulate in these places as well. The cultural developments of the Western Empire will probably be similar to the East. Now with both the central polity of the Roman state remaining intact and Rome’s armies being reformed it will have a leg up over the other kingdoms in Europe. It will probably have Lamellar armor like the East and develop similar clothing styles to the East mixed with some Frankish and Gothic\Lombard styles as a result of the cultural blending going on. I don’t think togas will be revived except maybe for a ceremonial capacity but during the late Roman times the togas went away in favor of the pants and chlamys. Chlamys were also popular in the East with the Franks and Germans making their own variants as well.
Here's an image of Ostrogothic Italy:
Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png


What do you guys think? To me this seems like an interesting POD for a timeline or self-inset/ISOT to restore the West at its the last possible moment. I kind of feel like writing one myself though.
 
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Well, it kind of did to a limited extent, in Grenada - the Arab golden age drew heavily on Greco-Roman philosophy, architecture etc obviously hybridised with Arab cultural aesthetic.
 
Well, it kind of did to a limited extent, in Grenada - the Arab golden age drew heavily on Greco-Roman philosophy, architecture etc obviously hybridised with Arab cultural aesthetic.

That is a very roundabout way. The Islamic world and its systems were predicated upon opposition to Rome, Persia and traditional empires preceding them. An opinion was clear, take from Rome what we wish and what is legal, the rest is for the Franks/Latins.
 
Well one can imagine a vestigial form of the toga staying around as a sort of cloak over more appropriate tunic and pants.
The toga had almost no utility. It was a ceremonial garb that was very uncomfortable. Very few people wore it, even less enjoyed wearing it.

I think people fail to realize that when we think of Rome, we conjure up images of the early Principate with sandals, lamellar, etc. The upper crust of the Roman aristocracy also had the best access to exotic foods, clothing, and clean living conditions - one could hardly expect the average peasant to have those things. Your average Roman in the days of the Dominate would probably appear very similar to Italians/Spaniards in the Early Middle Ages in terms of dress, dwellings, etc.
 
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The toga had almost no utility. It was a ceremonial garb that was very uncomfortable. Very few people wore it, even less enjoyed wearing it.
even moreso, iirc they had to pass a law requiring people to wear togas in the Forum because everyone hated them so much that they otherwise refused to wear them
 
The most important thing is to continue exporting the awful, stinky, smelling fish sauce Garum everywhere!

It's a lot like Maggi or patis or similar fermented fish sauces that are everywhere today, from what I understand. Worcestershire sauce is also something along similar lines. Basically I don't really know that (quality control aside) it would be more awful or stinky than the average seafood hot pot or barbecue.
 
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It's a lot like Maggi or similar fermented fish sauces that are everywhere today, from what I understand. Worcestershire sauce is also something along similar lines. Basically I don't really know that (quality control aside) it would be more awful or stinky than the average seafood hot pot or barbecue.

So a Utopia then?
 
even moreso, iirc they had to pass a law requiring people to wear togas in the Forum because everyone hated them so much that they otherwise refused to wear them
This why during the Dominate and in the Eastern Roman Empire the toga gave way for chlamys and pants. Chlamys were also more regal than togas and most people wore them with pants as a result of the colder climates in the North and the cultural mixing between the Romans and the Germanic tribes during the Migration Age. The Carolingians adopted several of their fashions from the Eastern Roman Court. Otto III is even depicted in this fashion and brought many Romanesce fashions and forms of art to the HRE. Maybe you could revive Roman architecture with an earlier Renaissance or have the Byzantines start rolling 6's and have genius emperors retake Italy in the Eigth century. Just have a more successful Constans II and maybe have Constantine IV live longer. Perhaps Justinian II is better prepared to rule because of this and the Byzantines lead a reconquista against the Arabs and eventually the Lombards. During Justinian's reign they still held Carthage and had a slim chance if they played their cards right of retaking Egypt. And in the Romans' reconstruction of Italy they bring back classical design and Hellenistic (Greco-Roman) culture. This spreads to the surrounding European states as well.
 
So a Utopia then?

I'd have loved a good culinary tour of the Roman Empire, not gonna lie. Would have been cool to see all the heritage versions of the crops (they made such a huge deal out of olive varieties I can't help but be curious), fish before overfishing killed the Mediterranean, and African instead of Asian spices.
 
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