How Do We Have France Win Out In The New World

[AltoRegnant]

So i kinda wanna do a tl about a pax francia/a francophonic new world at least, but I'm unsure how to do it pod wise.

How do we get it so that the French colonial empire is the strongest in the americas, and what sort of effects could this have? I know I want to give France either mexico or brazil, but that's only half the battle. They also need to actually populate it, which france kinda failed at otl (good for the natives tho)

 

[HeX]

So i kinda wanna do a tl about a pax francia/a francophonic new world at least, but I'm unsure how to do it pod wise.

How do we get it so that the French colonial empire is the strongest in the americas, and what sort of effects could this have? I know I want to give France either mexico or brazil, but that's only half the battle. They also need to actually populate it, which france kinda failed at otl (good for the natives tho)

If you want France to control a part of Central/South America right off the bat, they've either got to win a war against Spain or Portugal, or get there first or before the Treaty of Tordesillas. While today we might balk at the idea of a Pope drawing a line on a map and dividing the entire world into two spheres of influence, in 1494 that was basically considered God handing over land to his chosen people (AKA Catholics). If France somehow gets into the exploration kick immediately after Columbus (or they run across the Americas themselves--perhaps Spain turns down Columbus and France agrees?), I can see them being included in that treaty, given that their population was mostly devout Catholics at that point.

The reason why the French failed to populate most of their lands is because of a few reasons, the paramount one being that they, unlike the English/British, wouldn't let their religious outcasts go settle the New World. The Puritans founded Massachusetts, the Catholics founded Maryland, and the Quakers founded Pennsylvania. Maybe make France a bit less hateful of their Protestants, and you could see greater emigration to New France. And, of course, it all depends where New France winds up being. There were a few short-lived settlements/camps by the French from Maine to the Carolinas to Florida IOTL, and any one of those places (except for Florida, if the Spanish are still there) is a better choice than the frozen Québécois wasteland.

 

[AltoRegnant]

If you want France to control a part of Central/South America right off the bat, they've either got to win a war against Spain or Portugal, or get there first or before the Treaty of Tordesillas. While today we might balk at the idea of a Pope drawing a line on a map and dividing the entire world into two spheres of influence, in 1494 that was basically considered God handing over land to his chosen people (AKA Catholics). If France somehow gets into the exploration kick immediately after Columbus (or they run across the Americas themselves--perhaps Spain turns down Columbus and France agrees?), I can see them being included in that treaty, given that their population was mostly devout Catholics at that point.
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Maybe having Morocco or the ottomans intervene in the fall of Granada so the iberians as a whole get a later start than otl on colonization, and the French sponsored Columbus gets blown into the taino when leaving carolina (where he would likely land)

Do the Atlantic winds generally blow north or south on the American east?

 

[HeX]

Do the Atlantic winds generally blow north or south on the American east?

I wanna say north, judging by the fact that hurricanes usually go up the coast to the Carolinas, but don't quote me on that. That's just me pulling that out of thin air.

 

[AltoRegnant]

I wanna say north, judging by the fact that hurricanes usually go up the coast to the Carolinas, but don't quote me on that. That's just me pulling that out of thin air.

Whack, but does the political stuff with a Muslim power defending Granada hold water?

 

[HeX]

Whack, but does the political stuff with a Muslim power defending Granada hold water?

You could probably stave off the Granada War itself for a couple years simply by the Granadans not attacking the Catholics in a raid, which sparked the whole thing. But the Granadans are pretty much dead in the water by the 1400s. If you kept Castille and Aragon disunited by having the War of the Castillian Succession go in favor of Joanna la Beltraneja, the daughter of King Henry IV, Granada will probably stick around longer, though by that point both Catholic kingdoms would likely be disinterested in funding a search for a new route to India with the "Muslim menace" on their doorstep.

 

[AltoRegnant]

You could probably stave off the Granada War itself for a couple years simply by the Granadans not attacking the Catholics in a raid, which sparked the whole thing. But the Granadans are pretty much dead in the water by the 1400s. If you kept Castille and Aragon disunited by having the War of the Castillian Succession go in favor of Joanna la Beltraneja, the daughter of King Henry IV, Granada will probably stick around longer, though by that point both Catholic kingdoms would likely be disinterested in funding a search for a new route to India with the "Muslim menace" on their doorstep.

Could that be how we get a French funding of Columbus then?

 

[Gabingston]

I wanna say north, judging by the fact that hurricanes usually go up the coast to the Carolinas, but don't quote me on that. That's just me pulling that out of thin air.

The gulf stream goes north along the American East Coast, so a French Columbus would land in N.C. and explore up the coast before turning back towards Europe once he got past Cape Cod or so.

 

[HeX]

Could that be how we get a French funding of Columbus then?

Yeah, that seems like it'd work. Spain is disunited, Portugal is content with its route around Africa, and France... is interested?

 

[Gabingston]

So i kinda wanna do a tl about a pax francia/a francophonic new world at least, but I'm unsure how to do it pod wise.

How do we get it so that the French colonial empire is the strongest in the americas, and what sort of effects could this have? I know I want to give France either mexico or brazil, but that's only half the battle. They also need to actually populate it, which france kinda failed at otl (good for the natives tho)

I'd love to see you do that TL, there's been a thread about Verrazano (an Italian explorer sailing for France who explored the East Coast in the 1520s) setting up a settlement in New York (or Nouvelle-Angouleme as he called it) going around recently, so that would make a good POD.

 

[twovultures]

I think one way to give France more of an edge is if they manage to control the Netherlands. Once scenario I've thought of is an alternate Francis of Anjou takes the throne of Holland, using religious tolerance to gain the trust of the people but not being a "strong" king and so not forcing a confrontation with the Dutch nobility and bourgoisie. Then when the Valois-Angouleme dynasty ends as per OTL, one of his descendants takes over France (starting the Valois-Orange dynasty if I had a guess). France now has the port of Antwerp and the Dutch fleet. This isn't enough by itself, but it is enough to give them a chance to:

-Take a portion of Brazil
-Take chunks of the Caribbean as per OTL
-Face down the English navy when fighting for access to North America
-Potentially send more colonists, if the Dutch in this scenario don't fight the sea and instead emigrate to French colonies

So, we have a New France stretching from the St. Lawrence to the Great Lakes, and from there down to the Mississippi with the Caribbean islands making a sort of buckle in the French belt to connect it to northern Brazil. A very decent-sized empire.

 

[AltoRegnant]

The gulf stream goes north along the American East Coast, so a French Columbus would land in N.C. and explore up the coast before turning back towards Europe once he got past Cape Cod or so.

Is there anyway to get him to the Caribbean or better yet mexico? My other thread about this kinda concluded on him landing in the carolinas without knowledge of sugar plantations being viable just leading to otl colonization shifted a few decades later

 

[Gabingston]

Is there anyway to get him to the Caribbean or better yet mexico? My other thread about this kinda concluded on him landing in the carolinas without knowledge of sugar plantations being viable just leading to otl colonization shifted a few decades later

Well, he could go south along the coast of Iberia and Morocco before taking the North Atantic current across the sea before landing in the Caribbean.

 

[twovultures]

Is there anyway to get him to the Caribbean or better yet mexico? My other thread about this kinda concluded on him landing in the carolinas without knowledge of sugar plantations being viable just leading to otl colonization shifted a few decades later

Perhaps he finds quartz or fools gold in the southeast, and sparks rumors of the "jewels and vast wealth" of the New World anyway?

Any resulting colony is in for a very nasty surprise when they try to get rich quick, but they would have a few years, maybe over a decade, before having to worry about other Europeans. In that time, they can do a little exploring and gain furs, or sail to the Caribbean and bring back commercial strains of tobacco.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Well, he could go south along the coast of Iberia and Morocco before taking the North Atantic current across the sea before landing in the Caribbean.
View attachment 503524

... yeah wouldnt that be the smart route anyway since deep ocean navigation and the foodstuff to do it were new technologies?

 

[Gabingston]

... yeah wouldnt that be the smart route anyway since deep ocean navigation and the foodstuff to do it were new technologies?

Probably. Then again, he might take the northern route up to Iceland, along the coast of Greenland and then down to Newfoundland and the Gulf Of Saint Lawrence, but I'd suggest you go with the southern route if you want a massive French empire in the Americas.

 

[AltoRegnant]

So:
1) have Isabella lose the war of castilian succession, keeping the aragonese and castilians hostile to each other (I'm assuming on that part based on what @HeX has said)
2) have the granadans not raid the southern portion of castile to prevent the Granada War/end of the reconquista
3) No "Spanish" realm is interested in hiring columbus while the muslims are still kicking in the south.
4) France grabs Christopher and he goes around the iberian shelf (maybe the canaries as well) to minimize how long he's at sea so his food supply lasts longer
5) with a bit of luck, Columbus lands in a Caribbean island with some gold like the Taino island he hit otl
6) France begins hardcore colonization efforts

Nonlinear effects:
-Spanish realms start later than otl, and thus are even less enriched than if castile tried to do it without the east anyway, meaning that if the Hapsburgs still inherit castile they arent as successful on continent
-england likely starts earlier since Spain getting all the money was bad, but France getting it would be RED ALERT BAD NEWS YOUR MAJESTY
-Inca survive maybe? The disinterest of the liberians and the longer voyage for France might mean that they're more recovered from the civil war when French Pizzaro shows up
up
-Portugal and Castilian controlled Leon might be on the chopping block for France to limit foreign dependency

Anything I missed or misunderstood?

 

[Ivan Lupo]

France needs to stay out of the Italian Wars and not make enemies of all Europe before they do anything else. Keep the Habsburgs from acquiring Burgundy, Castile, and Aragon nearly all at once. If anything, France would be in a supremely dominant position if all the Burgundian lands fall into their own possession before falling to the Habsburgs.

When Colombus goes shopping around for funding, France takes a flyer on him.

 

[Gabingston]

France needs to stay out of the Italian Wars and not make enemies of all Europe before they do anything else. Keep the Habsburgs from acquiring Burgundy, Castile, and Aragon nearly all at once. If anything, France would be in a supremely dominant position if all the Burgundian lands fall into their own possession before falling to the Habsburgs.

When Colombus goes shopping around for funding, France takes a flyer on him.

The thing is that most people would've considered Columbus's plan utterly absurd (and for good reason, not only did educated people know that the Earth was indeed round, but also knew that it would be 10,000 Miles (and 10,000 more) to Asia going west.

 

[AltoRegnant]

France needs to stay out of the Italian Wars and not make enemies of all Europe before they do anything else. Keep the Habsburgs from acquiring Burgundy, Castile, and Aragon nearly all at once. If anything, France would be in a supremely dominant position if all the Burgundian lands fall into their own possession before falling to the Habsburgs.

When Colombus goes shopping around for funding, France takes a flyer on him.

So with the events I laid out above, the Austrians definitely dont get the whole of Spain, but how do we get the Castilians/Austrians away from burgundy? Let alone get the land themselves