Looking at the current problems of forming a new government in Belgium, I sometimes think it would have been better if Wallonia ended up French and Flanders Dutch (during the 19th century at least, the situation is completely different now). So inspired by the threat about a Prussian Belgium ask, how would France at the congress of Vienna (with possibly a POD slightly before it) manage to keep Wallonia. Not the Flemish harbors or Antwerp. Britain would not accept them in french hands. Also, i don't care if the borders are exactly the borders of current day Wallonia. So Brussels can become French or not, or Liege can become Prussian/Dutch/not-French; maybe (probably) no Luxemburg split, with Luxemburg ending up in either French or German/Prussian hands; etc. So any ideas?
How do we get a French Wallonia at the Congress of Vienna?
- Thread starter pompejus
- Start date
Valdemar II
Banned
I think the Talleyrand partition plan in 1830 are the best place for a French Vallonia. It would give France 3 of OTL modern Belgium 4 million Francophones plus a million Flemings. Netherland would lose a half million in Limburg but gain 2-3 million in Belgian Limburg and Brabant. Prussia would gain 1 million "German" speakers and 1 million French speakers. Antwerp would have 3-4 million Flemish.
Glen
Moderator
Valdemar II makes a cogent point - it is not particularly realistic to see France gain more territory at Vienna (heck, they were lucky to hold on to what they did!). If you change some things just prior to the 1830s, you might see the Belgian Revolution turn more into the French Annexation.
That could work, but I doubt that could happen during the Congress of Vienna. At least I don't think they will create such a small state, like Antwerp, bordering France out of fear France will gobble it up at the first oppertunity.
So no possibility? I was thinking that a more thorough redistibution of land might work, for example a loss of the Alsace to a German country, the loss of Corsica to Sardinia-Piedmont, maybe a loss of more colonies, while keeping Wallonia.
Keep in mind that the Congress of Vienna wasn't designed with nationalistic views in mind; it aimed for reducing the power of France that it wouldn't restart the Napoleonic Wars.
Of course, Talleyrand ensured that France would get a better settlement than it could have gotten, but hey.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Talleyrand's plan is a better place to look: the borders of France were not decided at Vienna except for some small adjustments after Waterloo, which were of course to France's disadvantage.
The problem I have with Talleyrand's plan is that I don't see the Prussians gaining so much, while they weren't part of the Belgian revolt. Also, I doubt the Netherlands would give up Zeelandic Flanders, which has been Dutch since the treaty of Westphalia, remained Dutch during the Belgian revolt and has a large amount of protestants. Although maybe with some adjustment the plan could work.
Though realy no possibility at Vienna? Maybe with a POD before Vienna?
I Blame Communism
Banned
Well, with a Pod before Vienna France could certainly keep Wallonia: that was the basis Metternich was willing to make peace on in 1814.
I should mention, though, that said basis would also see France keep Flanders, Limburg, and the left bank of the German Rhine. "Wallonia" did not really exist at that time in its modern sense.
I realise that. Still i would prefer most Flemish not to be under French rule; they would have had it even worse than under Walloon rule. I was thinking of some solution that would more or less accidentally mean that most of Wallonia ends up French while most of Flanders ends up Dutch (most likely thing to happen in my opinion). For example: the British don't want the Flemish harbors in French hands, so during negotiations (in which the French have a better position for some reson), the Netherlands gains the county of Flanders and the duchy of Brabant, while the French gain the rest of the southern Netherlands. This would give France basicly Wallonia (certainly if Liege is split) and the Netherlands Flanders. Might such a thing be possible in Vienna?
I thought that the British didn't want the French to have the port of Antwerpen, because the others flemish ports were only developed in the 19th century... Zeebrugge didn't really exist and Ostend was a very small town...
Antwerpen being the famous symbolic knife able to strike at the english heart...
In fact, Calais, Boulogne and Dunkerque on the french coasts are small ports and except for trans-manche navigation of small importance for maritime links of France.
And Antwerpen can be easily blockaded by any powers controlling the mouths of the Escaut, Kingdom of the Netherlands or a naval presence.
I already think about a possibility of a peace between a victorious Napolenic France and a UK made to negociate and in the new "Treaty of Amiens", the Netherlands regained their independance and they annexed the region of Antwerpen when the rest of Belgium stayed French...
If Metternich diplomatic solution was accepted in 1814, it could have been the same : France keep most of its revolutionnaries conquests : Belgium and Rhineland but lost the rest, everything Napoleon conquered including Italy...
Natch...
Freedom for Flanders - with the Netherlands and Britain as guarantors. Luxembourg is the real Grand Dutchy, guaranteed by Britain and Prussia. If the Walloons want to be French, that's their lookout....
Freedom for Flanders - with the Netherlands and Britain as guarantors. Luxembourg is the real Grand Dutchy, guaranteed by Britain and Prussia. If the Walloons want to be French, that's their lookout....