von hitchofen
Banned
that grinding noise you can hear is Joe Smith, Sydney Camm, Geoffrey de Havilland and Teddy Petter rotating furiously in their graves
How do I drag on the Second World War?
- Thread starter Genghis Kawaii
- Start date
that grinding noise you can hear is Joe Smith, Sydney Camm, Geoffrey de Havilland and Teddy Petter rotating furiously in their graves
IMO it's a pile of junk, it starts going off the rails in 1941 (in the first stated event), and just goes further and further. For starters, a Germany that can't beat France on its own is never going to persuade Mussolini to move, (The Moose didn't even start OTL until the 10th of June) Probably the same with Spain, and even if they did, Italy's only partially mechanised, Spain barely at all, so they're going to be both mostly foot-slogger armies, which may be enough to tip the balance, but will still require German to do the heavy moving. After that, the Axis isn't putting anything big into Africa in 2 months, the Italian facilities were cr*p.
On the American front, If the atrocities in China continue to pile up President Wheeler is going to face a few hard questions. Also, the Japanese were in capable of really hurting Australia or NZ OTL, what makes you think they'll do any better here (or will have the motivation to)? Also, neutrality doesn't mean 'turn away from Britain'.
Stalin isn't going to order an attack in '41, the army's just not ready and he knows it. And even (or especially) if that does play out, Germany's going to be screwed past 1943, because Russia knows about logistics and standardisation (and German's got no resources coming from north of Denmark), and with much less devastation, and it coming much later, they won't need LL.
And to describe Britain as horribly crippled is cr*p, they still retain as firm, untouched allies the most industrialised of their dominions, Canada, and you can bet there'll be a lot of volunteers from Australia, New Zealand and India.
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von hitchofen
Banned
the Wehrmacht was only partially mechanised - many artillery pieces used in Barbarossa were horse-drawn, and many SS cavalry units were just that, mounted on horseback
As a sidenote - in Eastern Poland and most of Russia where even mayor roads were often better dirt tracks horses performed better then vehicles in the wet season. Thats why poland maintained a large cavalry force - useless against Mechanized units, but great in the territory it was ment to defend (eastern Poland) - it gor chewed up when not properly used...
The Italians were much worse, by 1941 their heaviest tank was the Fiat M14/41, which weighed less than 15 tons and had a 47mm gun.
It got chewed up when it was ambushed by tanks, even the poles weren't that suicidal or stupid.
I should have worded it . When used not in the enironment it was intended for 
The myth of tank charging Lancers is only that - a myth... of course
The myth of tank charging Lancers is only that - a myth... of course
von hitchofen
Banned
only one type of unit in the Waffen-SS in Barbarossa was entirely mechanized
the Einsatzgruppen
well, they had an important job to do
Genghis Kawaii
Gone Fishin'
Except it isn't a complex new technology to the British. They'd been researching it, too. They just hadn't gotten an example as functional as the 262. That makes reverse engineering a functional design far easier and more practical. They are looking to see how the Germans got it to work somewhat well, not how to make jets in the first place.
Genghis Kawaii
Gone Fishin'
When you lack the advantage, you do what you have to do. A cobbled together 262 copy is better than no jets at all.
For the TL to work America must be neutral and USSR must be screwed.
Operation Pike implemented in 1940 would probably suffice to delay Lend -Lease long enough to be of marginal use to USSR. The political raprochement required would just be too great to resolve before 1942.
The Battle for France must end with a mass capitulation of the BEF on the beaches of Dunkirk but Churchill and Eden must be sidelined by Halifax somehow. Maybe the Norway adventure plays out differently and the Germans threaten to invade but end up being late to the party. Britain and France pre-emptively invade under plan R4 It doesn't stop the Battle of France and Churchill is seen as not only invading a neutral country but placing troops vital to the defence of France in the back end of nowhere. Germany occupies Norway after the Allies are forced to withdraw after the fall of France.
The Norway debacle also plays very badly in USA.
The Battle of Britain plays out as OTL as Halifax cannot reach a deal with Hitler he can sell to Parliament. He does manage the secure the neutrality of Italy at the cost of turning a blind eye to Mussolini's Greek adventure and the acquisition of Corsica from France (Halifax's Mers-el-Kebir moment). Again Halifax's diplomatic compromises do not play well in the states.
Without the conflict in the desert Italy does eventually grind Greece down. Germany is free to pursue its war in the East with no real distractions in the Balkans which end up fighting their own "little wars" over Yugoslavia after Greece is defeated (partitioned between Bulgaria, Hungary and Italy)
Britain's contribution is limited to some ineffective bombing raids as the lend lease deals are much much reduced from OTL and "cash and carry" is the rule. The resources required for convoy escorts means that Bomber command is stillborn and the RN and an expanded Fighter and Coastal command barely manage to stabilise Britain's position in Europe.
The conflict in the Pacific follows OTL with Britian doing slightly worse as the defence of Empire is almost entirely devolved to the Dominions and Indian armies. The Japanese are stopped but not before a significant part of Bengal is occupied the problems from an expanded INA continue to plague any advance into Burma.
Meanwhile USA steamrollers Japan in three years in a "Japan first" policy
Russian resistance is primarily limited to holding a line at the Volga-Don from 1943-5. Leningrad falls but Moscow remains in Soviet hands. The Caucasus are occupied by the Germans although the oilfields are wrecked.
Eventually the attrition on the Eastern Front and the defeat of Japan means that Britain (aided by an increasing flow of material from the Americans) can take an increasing aggressive role in Europe. American intervention is triggered after an American cruiser is torpedoed by a U-boat in early 1945.
There is no "soft underbelly" of Europe to threaten Romanian oil here.
The Nazi's have to switch their effort to fighting a second BoB in 1946 in an effort to make the American build up impossible. Overlord is scheduled for 1947 or possible 1948.
Operation Pike implemented in 1940 would probably suffice to delay Lend -Lease long enough to be of marginal use to USSR. The political raprochement required would just be too great to resolve before 1942.
The Battle for France must end with a mass capitulation of the BEF on the beaches of Dunkirk but Churchill and Eden must be sidelined by Halifax somehow. Maybe the Norway adventure plays out differently and the Germans threaten to invade but end up being late to the party. Britain and France pre-emptively invade under plan R4 It doesn't stop the Battle of France and Churchill is seen as not only invading a neutral country but placing troops vital to the defence of France in the back end of nowhere. Germany occupies Norway after the Allies are forced to withdraw after the fall of France.
The Norway debacle also plays very badly in USA.
The Battle of Britain plays out as OTL as Halifax cannot reach a deal with Hitler he can sell to Parliament. He does manage the secure the neutrality of Italy at the cost of turning a blind eye to Mussolini's Greek adventure and the acquisition of Corsica from France (Halifax's Mers-el-Kebir moment). Again Halifax's diplomatic compromises do not play well in the states.
Without the conflict in the desert Italy does eventually grind Greece down. Germany is free to pursue its war in the East with no real distractions in the Balkans which end up fighting their own "little wars" over Yugoslavia after Greece is defeated (partitioned between Bulgaria, Hungary and Italy)
Britain's contribution is limited to some ineffective bombing raids as the lend lease deals are much much reduced from OTL and "cash and carry" is the rule. The resources required for convoy escorts means that Bomber command is stillborn and the RN and an expanded Fighter and Coastal command barely manage to stabilise Britain's position in Europe.
The conflict in the Pacific follows OTL with Britian doing slightly worse as the defence of Empire is almost entirely devolved to the Dominions and Indian armies. The Japanese are stopped but not before a significant part of Bengal is occupied the problems from an expanded INA continue to plague any advance into Burma.
Meanwhile USA steamrollers Japan in three years in a "Japan first" policy
Russian resistance is primarily limited to holding a line at the Volga-Don from 1943-5. Leningrad falls but Moscow remains in Soviet hands. The Caucasus are occupied by the Germans although the oilfields are wrecked.
Eventually the attrition on the Eastern Front and the defeat of Japan means that Britain (aided by an increasing flow of material from the Americans) can take an increasing aggressive role in Europe. American intervention is triggered after an American cruiser is torpedoed by a U-boat in early 1945.
There is no "soft underbelly" of Europe to threaten Romanian oil here.
The Nazi's have to switch their effort to fighting a second BoB in 1946 in an effort to make the American build up impossible. Overlord is scheduled for 1947 or possible 1948.
von hitchofen
Banned
fascinating, if largely implausible
not only does the increased failure of the British make the development of costly advanced a/c less likely,
the absence of an Allied bombing campaign, and the increased success of the Luftwaffe removes the need for Heimatschutzer aircraft like the Me262. which will go the way of the He280
nothing to reverse engineer
the 1946 rerun of the Battle of Britain [whose objective is....what?] will be fought with Fw190Ds, Me 410s, Ju388s and He177s
the RAF will have Spitfire V and IXs, with a handful of Griffion Spit XIIs, Mosquitos and Beaufighters
The P-51, the only crucially important fighter of WWII, is strangled at birth by absence of L-L.
I agree - very implausible.
But not actually ASB I think. Got a bit carried away when I was putting it together as it seemed to flow quite nicely. Might even think about developing it.
I can see Churchill being blamed for Norway and even indirectly for the alt-Dunkirk
Less happy with Moose cutting a deal with Halifax or with USSR holding on the Volga (they'd either collapse or bounce back - stasis is perhaps the most unlikley alternative)
Plus if Roosevelt is President that cruiser is going to get sunk much much earlier - only if Taft gets the nomination (unlikely) and beats Roosevelt (very unlikely) does the time line have a chance.
The 1946-7 BoB II was for the OP's desire for a wunderwaffenfest. The only possible objective would be to bomb UK out of the war before the uS can bolster her defences.
von hitchofen
Banned
no need to build any Wunderwaffe if you've torn the RAF and the Soviets a new one with 109Es and Fs, FW190As, Ju88s, and He111s
also no V-weapons programme, which frees up more resources and manpower in 1943 for more Panzer IVs, Panthers, STuGs, and Tiger Is, and more medium bombers and Schlachtgruppen aircraft, whichs make a Soviet counterattack less successful if not an outright failure
and the Holocaust larger....
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I think that the UK on a world war footing would still develop more advanced aircraft types even without lend lease. The talent was there and the motivation. The typhoon nearly never made it in OTL but that won't stop the Griffon spits and possibly the early jets from being developed if they look like they might gain an advantage in the air. Even with the Typhoon scrapped early on the tempest might still make it. The Hurricane would still have to be replaced at any rate. Martin Baker designs might be given more priority.
Another thing about the TLs being touted here is that John Terraine fans might see RAF Coastal getting the lion's share of the heavies to the detriment of the U-boats.
If the Mustang is ordered and paid for by the UK and flies in late 1940 as it did OTL then it would still exist. I can see where you're coming from Von Hitchofen but not sure I agree about it being the only truly crucial fighter of the war.
PS, I've been thoroughly enjoying your '73 Israeli ISOT and looking forward to the next update.
Another thing about the TLs being touted here is that John Terraine fans might see RAF Coastal getting the lion's share of the heavies to the detriment of the U-boats.
If the Mustang is ordered and paid for by the UK and flies in late 1940 as it did OTL then it would still exist. I can see where you're coming from Von Hitchofen but not sure I agree about it being the only truly crucial fighter of the war.
PS, I've been thoroughly enjoying your '73 Israeli ISOT and looking forward to the next update.
von hitchofen
Banned
thanks! I think I will steer clear of this thread, the constant facepalming is putting me off updating my ISOT
If you want Germany to do better you need to change the actions of its allies so:
Bump off Mussolini and replace him with someone less reckless who stays out of Greece and Egypt thus sparing the German army getting bogged down in what were essentially sideshows. If you can't get rid of him then have the British get cold feet over Greece and send reinforcements to O'Connor and the Western Desrt Force so they take Tripoli and essentially kill off the Afrika Corps before it ever gets started.
On the other side of the world have Pearl harbour be a failure for the Japanese so Hitler decides against declaring war on the US. LL materials get diverted to the Pacific war and US involvement in Europe is at least postponed.
Bump off Mussolini and replace him with someone less reckless who stays out of Greece and Egypt thus sparing the German army getting bogged down in what were essentially sideshows. If you can't get rid of him then have the British get cold feet over Greece and send reinforcements to O'Connor and the Western Desrt Force so they take Tripoli and essentially kill off the Afrika Corps before it ever gets started.
On the other side of the world have Pearl harbour be a failure for the Japanese so Hitler decides against declaring war on the US. LL materials get diverted to the Pacific war and US involvement in Europe is at least postponed.
In Europe: have D-day be a massive failure that results in a lot of casualties. The failure leads the Nazis to strengthen their Atlantic Wall fortifications and place existing troops there on high alert for another follow-up attack. The western governments can either pursue one of three options from this point.
1. Very unlikely: Try for another invasion of Norway, although the failure of the first one will probably be a discouragement, and they likely wouldn't have the manpower to try that again.
2. The more likely scenario: The west scraps any new ideas for attacks on the Atlantic Wall as impractical and focuses on pushing up through Italy and invading Germany from there once they break into Europe through the south. The stalemate on the Italian front allows Germany to keep a more limited presence there while sending more soldiers to the Eastern Front to fight the Soviets. After that, it's only a matter of time until the German war machine starts losing the ability to maintain a two-front war, and the Allies break out of Italy while the Soviets push West. The USSR likely takes the entirety of Germany while the West creeps in through the mountains in the south (though they could also try to either gain passage through Switzerland or go around through southern France).
3. Probably ASB territory: The West tries to convince Spain to allow them to enter their territory and invade France through the Pyreness mountains. The resulting invasion has less manpower, and would most likely fail.
In the Pacific: Either have Truman decide not to use the A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and opt for a land invasion, or collaborate with the Soviets and do a blockade on Japan in an effort to starve them into submission.
The land invasion is probably slow and tedious, resulting in the deaths of millions of people as well as probably the mass suicide of the Japanese population (I say this because I remember reading somewhere that the Army was preparing the population to fight to the death rather than submit to occupation. I might be wrong).
The blockade probably turns Japan into a sort of Cuba, only with a state of war existing for a long time. Potentially gives Japan the ability to develop something of their own that might change the tide...
EDIT: another idea I just thought of. In scenario 2, perhaps as Germany is nearing it's end, Vichy France begins to fear for its own existence, and so the VF government approaches the West with a proposal to switch sides and allow the Allies to invade Germany through their territory. An interesting idea, though I don't know how plausible.
1. Very unlikely: Try for another invasion of Norway, although the failure of the first one will probably be a discouragement, and they likely wouldn't have the manpower to try that again.
2. The more likely scenario: The west scraps any new ideas for attacks on the Atlantic Wall as impractical and focuses on pushing up through Italy and invading Germany from there once they break into Europe through the south. The stalemate on the Italian front allows Germany to keep a more limited presence there while sending more soldiers to the Eastern Front to fight the Soviets. After that, it's only a matter of time until the German war machine starts losing the ability to maintain a two-front war, and the Allies break out of Italy while the Soviets push West. The USSR likely takes the entirety of Germany while the West creeps in through the mountains in the south (though they could also try to either gain passage through Switzerland or go around through southern France).
3. Probably ASB territory: The West tries to convince Spain to allow them to enter their territory and invade France through the Pyreness mountains. The resulting invasion has less manpower, and would most likely fail.
In the Pacific: Either have Truman decide not to use the A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and opt for a land invasion, or collaborate with the Soviets and do a blockade on Japan in an effort to starve them into submission.
The land invasion is probably slow and tedious, resulting in the deaths of millions of people as well as probably the mass suicide of the Japanese population (I say this because I remember reading somewhere that the Army was preparing the population to fight to the death rather than submit to occupation. I might be wrong).
The blockade probably turns Japan into a sort of Cuba, only with a state of war existing for a long time. Potentially gives Japan the ability to develop something of their own that might change the tide...
EDIT: another idea I just thought of. In scenario 2, perhaps as Germany is nearing it's end, Vichy France begins to fear for its own existence, and so the VF government approaches the West with a proposal to switch sides and allow the Allies to invade Germany through their territory. An interesting idea, though I don't know how plausible.
If D day failed the the south of France would be invaded instead as was done OTL.
A lot depends on how many men the men and materials the allies lose in D-day landings.
By the time of D day German oil production was being hit hard by bombing and oil shortage were becoming a very big problem.
A lot depends on how many men the men and materials the allies lose in D-day landings.
By the time of D day German oil production was being hit hard by bombing and oil shortage were becoming a very big problem.
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I've come upon some soldier sayings from the war from when they didn't know when it would end. Just thought I'd mention them:
Home Alive in '45
Out of the sticks in '46
From hell to heaven in '47
Golden Gate in '48*
The Bread Line in '49**
*This is the Pacific war, when the soldiers would return home seeing the site of the Golden Gate bridge coming into California.
**This came from the pessimists who expected the war not only to drag on that long, but to return to a Depression economy when it was over.
Home Alive in '45
Out of the sticks in '46
From hell to heaven in '47
Golden Gate in '48*
The Bread Line in '49**
*This is the Pacific war, when the soldiers would return home seeing the site of the Golden Gate bridge coming into California.
**This came from the pessimists who expected the war not only to drag on that long, but to return to a Depression economy when it was over.