The government of Laos conducted harsh reprisals, bordering on genocide, against their Hmong population after the victory of the Pathet Lao. The US Hmong population largely descends from escapees from Laos rather than Vietnamese Hmong.
How did North Vietnam win the civil war (American Phase)?
Yeah, I was wondering what he was talking about since the Hmong in Viet Nam are very pro-government (even to this day).
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I always thought it was this more than anything else. The south's population had nothing to fight for other than a corrupt government...
They could also have introduced land reform which would have undermined the Norths position.
BigBlueBox
Banned
I agree generally, but would like to note that Syngman Rhee's South Korea was hardly a bastion of good governance and anti-corruption yet South Korea still survived. I think the series of military coups was far more damaging to South Vietnam than the corruption. You can't win a war when all the generals are plotting coups, trying to avoid being couped, or deciding what side to take in the next coup instead of actually fighting the war.
But they did introduce land reform (though it's effectiveness was minimal):
In South Vietnam, especially in Mekong Delta, landholdings in rural areas were concentrated in small number of rich landlord families. Thus, it was urgent to implement land reform in South Vietnam. Diệm had two attempts to control the excesses of the land tenancy system by promulgating the Ordinance 2 on 28 January 1955 to reduce land rent between 15% to 25% of the average harvest and the Ordinance 7 on 5 February 1955 to protect the rights of tenants on new and abandoned land and enhancing cultivation. In October 1956, with the urge from Wolf Ladejinsky, Diệm's personal adviser on agrarian reform, Diệm promulgated a more serious ordinance on the land reform, in which he proclaimed a "land to the tiller" (not to be confused with other Land reform in South Vietnam like Nguyễn Văn Thiệu's later 'Land to the Tiller" program) program to put a relatively high 100 hectares limit on rice land and 15 hectares for ancestral worship.[83] However, this measure had no real effect because many landlords evaded the redistribution by transferring the property to the name of family members. Besides, during the 1946–54 war against the French Union forces, the Việt Minh had gained control of parts of southern Vietnam, initiated land reform, confiscated landlords' land and distributed it to the peasants.[84] Additionally, the ceiling limit was more than 30 times that allowed in Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan, and the 370,000 acres (1,500 km2) of the Catholic Church's landownings in Vietnam were exempted. The political, social, and economic influences of the land reform was minimal.[85] From 1957 to 1963, only 50 percent of expropriated land was redistributed, and only 100,000 out of approximately one million tenant farmers in South Vietnam benefited from the reform.[86]
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AlexG
Banned
As others have mentioned the tendency of media to amplify anti-communist atrocities and ignore worse communist atrocities, the incompetent conduct of the war from the american side, the american political refusal to invade the North with boots on the ground in order to destroy the NVA, the unwillingness to invade Laos which was for all intents and purposes an North Vietnamese puppet state to interdict and destroy the Ho-Chi-Min trail, the South Vietnamese lack of strong leadership after Diem was murdered, the tolerance of absurd levels of South Vietnamese corruption.
These are all things that should have enabled the destruction of South Vietnam. And yet it managed to survive all of these things until the U.S. congress cut them off from American Air power and money to purchase weapons, ammo and oil.
That was what killed South Vietnam.
These are all things that should have enabled the destruction of South Vietnam. And yet it managed to survive all of these things until the U.S. congress cut them off from American Air power and money to purchase weapons, ammo and oil.
That was what killed South Vietnam.
What would the Soviets have done if one or more of their supply ships was sunk in Haiphong, due to US mines or direct attack by US aircraft? Im sure if the situation was reversed, the Soviets would’t have hesitated.
On the other hand, I can see why the US wouldn’t want to risk Korea 2.0 with Mao.
ric350
On the other hand, I can see why the US wouldn’t want to risk Korea 2.0 with Mao.
ric350
AlexG
Banned
Which goes to show the level of military unintelligence that U.S. had on China at this time. China was embarrassed in its border conflict with the Soviet Union at this same time, and would have been annihilated if it had tried to engage the american army, which was designed to destroy large concentrated forces.
Hell, just a decade later the Chinese would be humiliated by Vietnam using looted american weapons and vehicles.
While it’s true that the North Vietnamese had critically high morale and the will to never give up, the Japanese during World War 2 also had insanely high morale, being indoctrinated about their Emperor being a living god and with pilots willing to face certain death in kamikaze attacks. The main difference between Japan and Vietnam is the commitment and morale within the United States. After Pearl Harbor, the American population was willing to accept almost any cost to bring the Axis forces to their knees. During the Vietnam War, there was more of a sentiment with Americans that it wasn’t really ‘their war’, so the public was a lot less willing to accept American losses.
You wouldn’t see large anti-war protests in the USA during the 2nd World War, while the anti-Vietnam protests were one of the hallmarks of the 1960s. So while the Vietnamese definitely had excellent morale, the American lack of morale and will to pay any price to win the war is the main difference why they eventually managed to crack Japanese morale, something that proved to be impossible regarding the Vietnamese.
You wouldn’t see large anti-war protests in the USA during the 2nd World War, while the anti-Vietnam protests were one of the hallmarks of the 1960s. So while the Vietnamese definitely had excellent morale, the American lack of morale and will to pay any price to win the war is the main difference why they eventually managed to crack Japanese morale, something that proved to be impossible regarding the Vietnamese.
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marathag
Banned
Start WWIII?
US had a massive nuclear superiority. Warhead parity would not occur til 1977.
don't think they are ready for that
The U.S. did mine Haiphong Harbor, and the Soviets, as far as I can tell, just complained about it without doing anything (other than ordering their ships to stay in harbor so as not to be sunk, of course).
Not to mention that in WWII the US took territory from the enemy, but in the case of Vietnam aside from some firebases there wasn't any territory taken physically. They didn't have as much to show for it.
That's correct. How many times do you hear about the atrocities committed by the VC in Hue during Tet? All you ever hear about when they mention Vietnam atrocities is My Lai and other alleged atrocities by the US troops. I'm not dismissing MyLai or other similar instances, but in no way was it official policy whereas in the case of the VC and the NVA in Hue the murder of South Vietnamese officials and Catholic nuns was a deliberate policy not a couple of troops going beyond the orders.
AlexG
Banned
It's definitely effed up.
I mean from what I've gathered the North kind of treats S.VN as a conquered country, with refusal to bury the South's military dead in graveyards, renaming their ancient cities to the names of their foes, etc. Not to mention the concentration camps they put South Vietnamese veterans in or the raping and pillaging that went on... well really for most of the war whenever the N.VA took territory, but specifically in 1968 and 1975.
I guess that didn't fit the narrative though.
In my opinion, they just used the Viet Cong as the bait. The US focused on the VC, and weakened them, but not the NVA. And there's the fact the VC was closer to Saigon than the North Vietnamese Army was. And we saved Hanoi the trouble of reconverting the VC, because afterwards, they sent thousands of VC fighters to "re education camps".
I know. I've got a relative who like me collects US stamps. Several years ago they came out with a series that honored the US Medal of Honor winners. One year they honored the WWI MOH (medal of honor), the next year it was WWII, then the next year it was Korea, and then the final year it was Vietnam. He refused to purchase the Korea War or Vietnam War as he argues that we shouldn't have gotten involved in those wars so he won't honor the troops who served there. Of course the real bad thing is that he works for the Federal government. He also argues that communism should be tried again. It was just implemented poorly in the USSR.
AlexG
Banned
That’s just sad. Korea and Vietnam war Vets are the most traumatized veterans in United States history relative to the information that was available to the public and the conscientiousness that it had.
They fought (officially) for 8 years to prevent a communist dictatorship from taking over South Vietnam, and considering the artificial obstacles placed in their way and the unwillingness of the higher ups to wage the war competently until Westmoreland was replaced, I’m amazed that that they succeeded in their mission, only to be failed by partisan hacks that lost the war on purpose. That goes double for South Vietnamese veterans.
It’s a stain on U.S. honor that I as refugee from a communist state will never forget. And it’s a shame that vets blame themselves or who think they actually lost the war.
It’s unarguable to say that the men and women of the American military lost the Vietnam war. They did what they set out to achieve. The Paris Peace accords established a peace that although was violated frequently by the NVA, was held together by the threat of U.S. AirPower. Once that threat was taken away, once South Vietnam couldn’t afford to pay for ammo, oil and the other necessities of modern war, it was dead.