How did borders in the HRE work?

Basically, I want Susano in here. ;)

Post-1648, did they actually run up customs between all the principalities? Just the big ones? Between some of them only? How about on the border with France? And in, eg, the War of the Spanish Succession, armies just tromped in a straight line with no regard to whose garden they were marching in, right?
 
The territories also merged and divided according to the whims of the ruling families. I don't think most of them had much in the way of modern governing apparatus.
 

Susano

Banned
It depended on the state abilities and status mostly. But as far as I understand it, and I find that mindboggling as well, yes at least the borders betweenthe midsized and larger states were custom borders as well. Maybe (Im not sure on that actually) the imperial knights and three villages lordships would not have the ressources to do so, but then again how difficult is it to post two, three men on the road, heh.

Of course one has to keep in mind that even the larger realms like France, Habsburg Austria and Brandenburg-Prussia were at that time not a single custom space, either - that only happened during French Revolutionary/Napoleonic times or even only the early 19th century. And road tolls were common, too. So having to pay custom or tolls every 100km or so was not that uncommon in Europe in general, I guess, it was just execeptionally bad in Germany, which really DID hinder economic development, too. Part of why in Rhine Confederacy times there was an economic upswing.

Armies of course didnt need to regard borders. Hell, the allied armies (or the French armies all on their own ;) ) often had more men then the principalities inhabitants ;) So what could the Prince or Lord do about them? Not much.
 

Susano

Banned
The territories also merged and divided according to the whims of the ruling families. I don't think most of them had much in the way of modern governing apparatus.

Eh, to a degree. But even when dynastic split shappened, the new states did build up an administration apapratus. Real modern administrations with record files and stuff only appeared in the 18th century, of course, but custom borders dont need that. For example Saxony: For a time Saxony (and I mean Albertine Saxony, not the various Thuringian Duchies) was dynastcially subdivdied as well. The secundogenitures were bound to the main state, and were not "reichsunmittelbar" - and yet they did uphold custom barriers to the main state as well.
 
It depended on the state abilities and status mostly. But as far as I understand it, and I find that mindboggling as well, yes at least the borders betweenthe midsized and larger states were custom borders as well. Maybe (Im not sure on that actually) the imperial knights and three villages lordships would not have the ressources to do so, but then again how difficult is it to post two, three men on the road, heh.

Of course one has to keep in mind that even the larger realms like France, Habsburg Austria and Brandenburg-Prussia were at that time not a single custom space, either - that only happened during French Revolutionary/Napoleonic times or even only the early 19th century. And road tolls were common, too. So having to pay custom or tolls every 100km or so was not that uncommon in Europe in general, I guess, it was just execeptionally bad in Germany, which really DID hinder economic development, too. Part of why in Rhine Confederacy times there was an economic upswing.

Armies of course didnt need to regard borders. Hell, the allied armies (or the French armies all on their own ;) ) often had more men then the principalities inhabitants ;) So what could the Prince or Lord do about them? Not much.

Right, forgot all the internal checkpoints the big states had. So yeah, guards everywhere, I guess.

And did any of the German states make an attempt to stay neutral in, eg, the War of the Spanish Succession? Or if they did did everyone ignore them and march through them so much it didn't make it into the history books?
 
Generally Yes to those questions, all principalities that could enforce customs did so, although I don't know if stuff like the deutscher Zollverein (german customs union, 1834) existed in pre-napoleonic HRE.
And give the size of most of those principalities, they couldn't have done much if some army marched through their terrain (just pray that they leave soon) and those big enough to be a concern (Saxony, Bavaria, etc.) were often enough involved in those wars anyways (allied to one side or the other :eek:)
 

Susano

Banned
And did any of the German states make an attempt to stay neutral in, eg, the War of the Spanish Succession? Or if they did did everyone ignore them and march through them so much it didn't make it into the history books?
Im not sure. Going by incidents, though, I think their status was mostly ignored. I mean, how often did French troops invade Swabia? Do you really think they kept a map of the without exaggeration at least 150 or so principalities, counties, lordships, imperial knights, free imperial cities, bishoprics and abbeys with their literally thousands of exclaves and enclaves and then carefully manouvered around them? :D
 
Im not sure. Going by incidents, though, I think their status was mostly ignored. I mean, how often did French troops invade Swabia? Do you really think they kept a map of the without exaggeration at least 150 or so principalities, counties, lordships, imperial knights, free imperial cities, bishoprics and abbeys with their literally thousands of exclaves and enclaves and then carefully manouvered around them? :D

Scene: French soldiers looking at map.

"Shit shit guys, that side of the road is Heiligenberg. We can't go over there."

"But that side is Königsegg-Aulendorf! What do we do?"

Pause.

"Walk carefully down the middle?"
 
Scene: French soldiers looking at map.

"Shit shit guys, that side of the road is Heiligenberg. We can't go over there."

"But that side is Königsegg-Aulendorf! What do we do?"

Pause.

"Walk carefully down the middle?"
Maybe that's why the French tried to conquer as much of it as possible, so they finaly understood the borders.
 
Scene: French soldiers looking at map.

"Shit shit guys, that side of the road is Heiligenberg. We can't go over there."

"But that side is Königsegg-Aulendorf! What do we do?"

Pause.

"Walk carefully down the middle?"
Strangely Enough, this Actually Happened to The Austrian Army a Few Years Back ...

One of their Units, Accidentally Invaded a Coupla Kilometres into Lichtenstein ...

Speaking of Borders in The MIDDLE of Roads, has Anybody Ever Seen that Picture of a Road in Germany, Where The Left Turn-Lane is in The Netherlands?

:eek:
 
Speaking of Borders in The MIDDLE of Roads, has Anybody Ever Seen that Picture of a Road in Germany, Where The Left Turn-Lane is in The Netherlands?

:eek:

No, but I would like to ;)

There is a famous cartoon (actually of the 19th century, but fits here as well)
with a donkey cart stopping at a German-German border, the donkey's head
in one state, the drawbar in another, and the rear in the third one.
Two sets of custom officers busy at work, the owner alarmed,
the donkey frugally munching on hay ;)

It's bound to be somewhere on the web ...
 
Then there's the reverse aspect

Then there were some states (e.g. Brandenburg-Prussia, and the Austrian Empire) where part of the state was within the borders of the Holy Roman Empire and other parts weren't. Was there an indication on the Koenigsberg - Berlin highway that you were entering the Holy Roman Empire?
 

Susano

Banned
Then there were some states (e.g. Brandenburg-Prussia, and the Austrian Empire) where part of the state was within the borders of the Holy Roman Empire and other parts weren't. Was there an indication on the Koenigsberg - Berlin highway that you were entering the Holy Roman Empire?

Those borders generally were along borders of single Prussian and Austrian territories, and those were marked. As said, the larger realms werent even a single custom space in the early modern age.
 

Thande

Donor
Thanks for raising this issue, Zedster, as it's something I've wondered about as well.

Susano makes a good point that France for example, theoretically a single united realm, also had plenty of internal tolls. On the other hand, France's internal structure under the ancien regime had that distinction between those provinces with different rights and autonomy and so on, so France might not be the best example.

It also makes me realise that I don't know much about how tolls and customs worked in England. AFAIK we've never had border tolls between counties etc., they were always based on roads or river bridges. Maybe because England has been unitary basically since the Conquest...
 
Just to take part in the fray, Denmark had since the invention of towns/cities made their towns able to demand toll from any man taking goods into said town. This was only abolished 1852!

Toll was also paid when travelling into the German duchies.
Administration was set up for each Kingdom - Duchy - County! With their own toll, tax and minting among a lot other administrative duties.
Toll was paid when travelling with good between the Kingdom - Duchies - Counties as this was a source of income for the town, nobility or whoever controlled trade and markets.
Even the small island of Ærø was divided between four Dukes each demanding toll in his estate in the island.

Of course smuggling was common.
 
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