How could Tudor England establish proper control over Ireland?

So, the only way England can have a loyal Ireland is if they settle it with English? Even if this is before Luther and his Ninety-Five Theses and religion isn't a factor?
 
So, the only way England can have a loyal Ireland is if they settle it with English? Even if this is before Luther and his Ninety-Five Theses and religion isn't a factor?


Religion would always be a factor. Irish Catholics were a different breed, the English would use this to justify their abuses it's convenient enough.

But yes, it was an invasion and subjugation of a completely different culture, genocide was almost inevitable.
 
So, the only way England can have a loyal Ireland is if they settle it with English? Even if this is before Luther and his Ninety-Five Theses and religion isn't a factor?

I think there is another way but it require treating Ireland less like a colony and more like Scotland.
 
I think there is another way but it require treating Ireland less like a colony and more like Scotland.

Scotland was hardly treated well, it just was more divided culturally and didn't have the advantage of being separated by water. They still cleared the highlands and used force several times.
 
So, the only way England can have a loyal Ireland is if they settle it with English? Even if this is before Luther and his Ninety-Five Theses and religion isn't a factor?

Even without the religious aspect no one likes being invaded by foreigners who steal our the land , destroy your language and culture and social and political system and turn you in to beggars.

I cannot think of any reason why the Irish should be loyal to the Tudors or any English monarch.
 
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I'll suppose I'll just have to accept the fact that making Ireland accept English rule is going to require extensive English settlement. Although I do think that in the beginning there will be some Irish who will collaborate.
 
how many Irish will collaborate will depend on if they can make good money or keep their land.
I'll suppose I'll just have to accept the fact that making Ireland accept English rule is going to require extensive English settlement. Although I do think that in the beginning there will be some Irish who will collaborate.
one of the problem OTLwith english settlers coming to Ireland was they started to adopted Irish customs and began to speak Gaelic and become just as rebellious as the Irish.
It was only in the last plantation of Ulster where they did not adopt Irish custom etc.
That last plantation of ulster is still the cause of of problem today.
My mother's family came to Ireland during that plantation from Scotland.
all the other plantation before that were failures.
event the last plantation of ulster had problem in 1798 rebellion the settlers rebelled too ( Presbyterian Methodists etc) as non Anglican they were not treated well by the English.
 
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Simreeve, I can see that. Are you sure you don't have the source? I really can't find much detail on the declaration, most accounts just say he declared himself King of England from the day before the Battle of Bosworth and used it to seize King Richard III's lands. It doesn't say anything about noble lands, which admittedly could be because he didn't. He did give out lots of writs of attainder though.
Can't name the source offhand, no, sorry. I was a member of the Richard III Society for over a decade, during which I read quite a lot of different material about the period.
IIRC those writs of attainder were after later unrest, after he'd been publicly crowned, when the situation was more clear-cut.

Religion would always be a factor. Irish Catholics were a different breed
In fact the original 'English' conquest of Ireland, under Henry II, was approved by the Pope* because in those days most of the Irish weren't yet Catholics at all...

(* Okay, yes, so that was [for the only time so far] an English pope...)


They still cleared the highlands
If you mean the 'Highland Clearances' of the 19th century, those were actually ordered by Scottish lords (albeit ones whose families might have decided that London was a better place to live) who wanted to go over to wide-scale sheep-farming in the hope that this would increase the income from their lands.
 
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What id do not under stand is Why you want the Irish to be loyal subjects of the Tudors?
OTL long term Ireland cost the English more than they got out of it and was nothing but trouble for them.
They would get a better return by putting those resource in the the America colonies.
 
What id do not under stand is Why you want the Irish to be loyal subjects of the Tudors?
OTL long term Ireland cost the English more than they got out of it and was nothing but trouble for them.
They would get a better return by putting those resource in the the America colonies.
Apart from anything else (such as, for example, the risk of Spain or France using it as a stepping-stone for an invasion of England), the Kings of England had owned Ireland -- at least in theory -- since the reign of Henry II. Giving up control of a possession because of unrest there sends the wrong message to anybody who might consider unrest in any of the kings' other possessions.
 
Loyal subjects are always better than disloyal subjects, especially from the point of view of a king. They also tend not to start messy rebellions, but I'm beginning to think 'loyal subjects' and 'Irish' just do not go together :rolleyes:.

I suppose one of the factors that helped with the Ulster plantation succeeding was the low Irish population there. As far as I know there were only about 40,000 Irish who wandered around with their cattle.

There are a number of factors that make Ireland important to the English, and I agree with Simreeve. Ireland under a foreign power is always a threat to England, especially as at the time they also had Scotland to their north and France to their south. Adding Ireland means they're almost surrounded, not a situation any English ruler wants to be in. Especially if it's France.

Also, Ireland just itself is not worthless. In one of Belfast's links to another timeline (Fiontir?) I found reference to gold in Ireland. Further research turned up an article on it, which identifies gold in quite a bit of Ireland - which I find fascinating. There are a few 'hotspots' it identifies too:

1)Cavanacaw - Tyrone - NI
Est. Tonnage: 2,000,000 tons at 6.9g/t Au ~ 13,800,000 g

2)Curraghinalt - Tyrone -NI
Est. Tonnage: 470,000 tons at 17g/t Au ~ 8,000,000 g (may in fact be a lot bigger)

3)Armagh-Monaghan - NI/RoI
The article doesn't provide an estimated tonnage but the company prospecting says it is extensive

4)Lecanvey - County Mayo - RoI
Est. Tonnage: 498,000 tons at 9.94g/t Au ~ 5,000,000 g

5)Cregganbaun - County Mayo - RoI
Est. Tonnage: 530,000 tons at 6g/t Au ~ 3,180,000 g

Actually it would be easier for you to read the article yourself, but my point is if a significant deposit of gold is found in Ireland (or someone reads the tales where they are apparently mentioned) in the 1500s there may be significantly more interest in Ireland by the King/Queen. I think by the standards of the time (apart from the New World Spanish) they are quite significant.

Also Simreeve, shame about the source. I supoose you have the right of it, I can't find anywhere that he seized the nobles' under Richard III's lands.
 
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I suppose one of the factors that helped with the Ulster plantation succeeding was the low Irish population there. As far as I know there were only about 40,000 Irish who wandered around with their cattle.
The Irish were not nomads wandering around with cattle.
Cattle were razed on bad land and the dung collected and brought to the walled infield to make it fertile for growing grain crops.
the more cattle you had the more infield you were allowed to have.
if you did not collect all the dung from your cattle, you would be warned if you ignored this you would have to sell some of the cattle and the amount of infield you had was reduced to the amount of ground you could provide dung for.
Cows with caves were with 2 x the times as much cows with out.
Caves were need to stimulate milk production.
Dairy products were what they wanted for the cows and the dung for the tillage.
monasteries were at this time important centres of education and farming, with fish ponds and horticulture for production of dyes etc and scriptorium for the production of books.
Books were written on calf skin called calfskin called vellum.
List of abbeys and priories in Ireland


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_abbeys_and_priories_in_Ireland

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the below has a pdf on rural settlement and cultural identity in Gaelic Ireland 1000 ad to 1500 ad by [FONT=&quot]Tadhg O ’KEEFFE[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] RURAL SETTLEMENT
AND CULTURAL IDENTITY
IN GAELIC IRELAND, 1000-1500
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Tadhg O ’KEEFFE
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] This paper is an exploration of the processes and patterns of settlement in Gaelic Ireland in the first half of
the present millennium. A number of themes are discussed: continuity of settlement type from the pre-Viking
period, the changes in landscape organisation in the aftermath of the Vikings and their significance, and the
origin of the tower-house, the small private castle that was popular among Gaelic familie
[/FONT]
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...alia.cz/142-153.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie
 
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A the Kings of England had owned Ireland -- at least in theory -- since the reign of Henry II

That is what the main problem between England and Ireland always has been.
The Irish always said that Ireland did not belong to the King of England.
The conflict was always about who owned Ireland.
 
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