How could the Empire of Mexico survived?

Was there any way that the first Empire of Mexico could have survived, maybe not to present day, but into the 20th century? Would Mexico remaining an Empire have any major effects on its history?

Curious because I am considering trying to start a Mexican Empire TL.
 
Technically they would survive if they became a vassal/puppet of the US during the Mexican-American war. That to me seems like the most possible route. They would probably only make it into the early 1900's though.
 
Was there any way that the first Empire of Mexico could have survived, maybe not to present day, but into the 20th century? Would Mexico remaining an Empire have any major effects on its history?

Curious because I am considering trying to start a Mexican Empire TL.

That is a good question. A quick glance at the wiki answer doesn't reveal much, but if you can somehow get King Ferdinand VII to accept the proposal of a commonwealth wherein he is Emperor of Mexico and King of Spain (the original proposition by the Mexican 'government', then the empire might survive. Alternatively, the second attempt, i.e. getting any Bourbon monarch to accept the throne in lieu of Ferdinand VII refusing to even acknowledge Mexico as independent, might prove to be more successful.

From what I breifly read, I think the idea of a republic similar to the USA was the popular view in Mexico during this period, and as such it served the purpose of overthrowing the empire and replacing it with a republic. I don't know if the first can survive.

I don't know much on history, but what if the Mexican Empire never let in settlers from America?

What you're thinking of was the Aztec Empire, and they didn't 'let' settlers in at all, they were conquered and decimated by European diseases. Out of curiosity, what aspects of history do you know about? Is it just American history you aren't learned on?
 
Technically they would survive if they became a vassal/puppet of the US during the Mexican-American war. That to me seems like the most possible route. They would probably only make it into the early 1900's though.
I'd think that the survival of a Mexican government would depend more on internal contentness than on foreign acquiescence. Or are you saying the empire needs American force to prop it up?

EDIT: Emperor-of-New-Zealand: I believe kwonphilip is trying to avert a Texan secession and ensuing conflict with the US.
 
Technically they would survive if they became a vassal/puppet of the US during the Mexican-American war. That to me seems like the most possible route. They would probably only make it into the early 1900's though.

Erm... Mexico wasn't an empire during the Mexican American War. The First Mexican Empire lasted only 8 months (or so), and after that it was a republic. You're talking about the general territorial extent of the Mexican Empire which lasted until the Texan Revolution and the Mexican-American War.
 
That is a good question. A quick glance at the wiki answer doesn't reveal much, but if you can somehow get King Ferdinand VII to accept the proposal of a commonwealth wherein he is Emperor of Mexico and King of Spain (the original proposition by the Mexican 'government', then the empire might survive. Alternatively, the second attempt, i.e. getting any Bourbon monarch to accept the throne in lieu of Ferdinand VII refusing to even acknowledge Mexico as independent, might prove to be more successful.

From what I breifly read, I think the idea of a republic similar to the USA was the popular view in Mexico during this period, and as such it served the purpose of overthrowing the empire and replacing it with a republic. I don't know if the first can survive.



What you're thinking of was the Aztec Empire, and they didn't 'let' settlers in at all, they were conquered and decimated by European diseases. Out of curiosity, what aspects of history do you know about? Is it just American history you aren't learned on?

Sorry bout the quote, but what I meant was that the war with America was partly caused by the annexation of Texas. Most of Texas' population at the time was from America, and these were the settlers that 10 years before did the Texas Revolution. So if American settlers never were allowed in Texas, then it would not have succeeded, and in turn not be able to be annexed by the Americans and preventing the war with America.
 
Sorry bout the quote, but what I meant was that the war with America was partly caused by the annexation of Texas. Most of Texas' population at the time was from America, and these were the settlers that 10 years before did the Texas Revolution. So if American settlers never were allowed in Texas, then it would not have succeeded, and in turn not be able to be annexed by the Americans and preventing the war with America.
Of course, the Texas question didn't come up IOTL until after the Emperor was gone. Browsing Wikipedia, it seems that something that could help Agustín (ten months--wow!) might be sudden successes for the republicans in Spain. Without Ferdinand VII in any position to complain, might the rest of Europe be more inclined to build up regime-stabilizing commercial ties with Mexico?
 
Of course, the Texas question didn't come up IOTL until after the Emperor was gone. Browsing Wikipedia, it seems that something that could help Agustín (ten months--wow!) might be sudden successes for the republicans in Spain. Without Ferdinand VII in any position to complain, might the rest of Europe be more inclined to build up regime-stabilizing commercial ties with Mexico?

To tell you the truth, I was talking more about the land ownership of the first Mexican Empire, though maybe not with Central America. I actually thought it would not be possible for the actual empire with the royal family to stay in power, but I do see your point.
 
EDIT: Emperor-of-New-Zealand: I believe kwonphilip is trying to avert a Texan secession and ensuing conflict with the US.

Sorry bout the quote, but what I meant was that the war with America was partly caused by the annexation of Texas. Most of Texas' population at the time was from America, and these were the settlers that 10 years before did the Texas Revolution. So if American settlers never were allowed in Texas, then it would not have succeeded, and in turn not be able to be annexed by the Americans and preventing the war with America.

Doi. Good one, Emp, misreading it :eek:. Sorry about that.

To tell you the truth, I was talking more about the land ownership of the first Mexican Empire, though maybe not with Central America. I actually thought it would not be possible for the actual empire with the royal family to stay in power, but I do see your point.

You certainly know more than you let on. But as Cook pointed out, the First Empire didn't survive until the Texan Revolution and all that mess (which I think is what you're alluding to, in the end). It was only around for 10 months.
 
Doi. Good one, Emp, misreading it :eek:. Sorry about that.



You certainly know more than you let on. But as Cook pointed out, the First Empire didn't survive until the Texan Revolution and all that mess (which I think is what you're alluding to, in the end). It was only around for 10 months.

Its okay bout that, i should have explained more in the original post. Again, I don't think either empire could have really stayed in power well into the 1900's, so I decided to defend the land.

Thanks for the complement, I would rather have people think I know nothing and be surprised than have people think I know everything and be let down. But truthfully, the history of Latin America is not flimiar to me.
 
One of the problems is the internal divisions within Mexico. The only reason the Mexicans were able to succede was because both the Monarchists and Republicans joined together in deciding that independence was better than being ruled by the French (no matter if it was indirectly or not)

One of my thoughts was indeed perhaps have a Bourbon take the throne, or to perhaps have Ferdinand end up being forced to flee to Mexico (and, rather than simply remain in exile, become the Emperor of a large nation).

I had also had the thought however, that perhaps the Republicans and Monarchists could reach a compromise, and forge the Mexican Empire into a successful Constitutional Monarchy. Not sure how I'd go about that one though.
 
This rings a bell, and my answer will probably ring a bell too

In the initial stage of the unrest against Iturbide there was an occasion when both Santa Anna and Guadeloupe Victoria were within reach of capture/killing of a pursuing force, but they managed to escape. Do away with those two and Iturbide gets some breathing room

Alternatively, from my reading of the initial agreement granting Mexico independence, as well as a potential Bourbon monarch, Archduke Karl of Teschen was another and had he accepted the throne then things could have been very interesting indeed. OTL Iturbide got it by default from a mixture of nobody from Europe wanting it and from being head of the regency council; IIRC the Spanish didn't think he'd have the balls to take the title for himself

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
You mean this guy Grey?

I've been thinking on and off on this one, and I really am interested in eventually doing a TL that has the first Empire survive. The general theme seems to be that either Ferdinand VII or some other Bourbon monarch needs to accept the title of Emperor of Mexico. The commonwealth idea sounded interesting as well, although the main goal is to have an Empire of Mexico independant of Spain.

So, anyone have any suggestions of people who could have taken the oppurtunity, and ways that could push one such person into actually accepting? One possibility could be having the Republicans in Spain succeding better, as mentioned, which could theoretically force Ferdinand VII to flee into exile, which could give the Monarchists proposition more influence over his destination.

Reaons for and against each potential canidate are good of course. I'd like any thoughts on whether Ferdinand VII or Archduke Karl would be the better canidate, or more interesting one would also be nice.
 

I've posted about this before, basically any government in Mexico after independence from Spain in the 1820s is going to be in very hot water for two simple reasons; Mexico's economy is simply thrashed by this point (the State Treasury certainly felt it) and politically Mexico is divided into Republicans and Monarchists (the latter being cut into those who favoured a Bourbon and those who favoured Agustin).

So, to avoid the Empire falling, Mexico needs to have had a much less militant guerilla campaign that fought for Mexican independence as that was what devistated the economy. The Republicans would be a problem, but without a good economy it really doesn't matter, as the Empire would fall sooner or later.

If you can remove the guerilla campaign (perhaps Nappy never instated his family in Spain?) then you have the hurtle of the convincing the Bourbons to roll with a Commonwealth or whatever. As you mentioned, having them kicked out of Spain by the Republicans would certainly help.

As I have also said before, you could have the Bourbons flee to Mexico after being deposed by Nappy, much like the Portuguese Royal Family did with Brazil and work from there.

Cheers
 
This may be a little off topic but I like to bring it up when this question is asked.

Now a surviving First Mexican Empire is so difficult to do as to become implausible.

That being said, in an upcoming TL I'm working on, the mid 18th Century results in a briefly British Mexico and when the inevitable revolution comes and the fight for a Mexican Empire arises a longer lived and escaped Napoleon Bonaparte evades the RN, arrives in Mexico to take the throne, and establishes a Constitutional Monarchy to appease the Republicans. He doesn't live long enough for the tantalizing Latin American wank people I'm sure would imagine, but the empire survives. Napoleon II's heiress daughter weds Maximilian, uniting the first and second Empires of OTL into a seamless lineage.

Not what you're looking for I'm sure, but interesting nonetheless.

At least to me.
 
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