How could Sweden become a great power?

[chris N]

If Charles defeates Peter The Great then it would lead to the Swedish controling not only Finland but the Baltic States and Russia up to the White Sea. The Rurik people would be reasorbed back into the scandinavian people thus giving Sweden a larger poputation. Russia would be a backward country.

 

[Redbeard]

If this is to be called and be Sweden a consolidation of Swedish possesions in Finland and the current Baltic republics probably is the best that can be hoped for. Requires modern Russia stumbling (Peter failing) and Russia remaining drunk, longbearded and in internal strides for a couple of centuries.

Outside those areas Sweden will still be subject to the existing great powers maintaining Scandinavian balance.

For Scandinavia to break loose of such outside control we need early PoDs creating not only Scandinavian unity but also basis for major demographical changes. An early PoD and union however is unlikely however to be of predominantly blue-yellow colour but rather red-white. But even if this union starts out flying the Dannebrog and being centered on Copenhagen it will if being anything beyond a "Scandinavian Netherlands" never be a Danish (or Swedish) great power in the contemporary meaning of Danish or Swedish.

With a political PoD no later than 16th century though, I could imagine the Baltic developing into a thriving area of cultural and economical exchange. Over a century or two that can produce some stunning demographics multiplying the population and economical base of a Scandinavian union by a factor 2-4. If anywhere near the higher factor you will however have to include North Germany, and my guess is that would have our "Empire" be as much Platdeutsch as Danish, Swedish or Scandinavian - but it will still fly the Dannebrog

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[arctic warrior]

I would like to see a TL based on the Swedes accepting the Danish Prince in 1809 instead of Berradotte, the French Marchall..
And then invading Finland in 1812 while Nappy is doing his Disaster in Russia.

It is up and running - well the first half that is

 

[arctic warrior]

Many Danes are embarrassed that they lost Scania.

Not embaressed - more like "damn!"

 

[arctic warrior]

Hmm, okey now Im getting what you said, but

I doubt you could label the "Novgorod Rus" Scandinavian. IIRC it was more like a few Viking "merchants" setting themselfes up as rulers over various Finno/Slavo tribes.

Remotly similar to what the Swedes did to "Finnland" much later.

Well, they spoke Scandinavian, their laws, rulers, and soldiers all were... I think that's good enough. Ethnicity is meaningless anyway.

The Danish and Rus royal families intermarriaged in the 11-12 century. Have the Swedish one do so in the 9-10 century and by some lucky stroke inherit Novgorod and stick to it!
Novgorod might even then go catholic.
Nationalism isn't an issue - Denmark was a multinational state until 1864...

 

[Max Sinister]

If you want a bigger population base, give them some bigger colonies in America.

 

[Lokit]

I personally think that if Gustav Adolf had survived Sweden would have been a lot more likely remain a great power. That and Sweden squashing Denmark during the 17:th century and/or Charles X not violating the treaty of Roskilde by invading Denmark again .

 

[Nierce Brettun Aniath]

umm...

It does raise some interesting questions. Is there any way to speculate on what sort of colonizing power Sweden would have been? If Sweden was able to to establish substantial colonies in Africa, South Asia or the Americas in the 16th-18th centuries, what would be their purpose? Because of the small population of Sweden, I would imagine trade and resource exploitation, rather than settlement of excess population. Would this put Sweden on a collision course with Britain, France, or Spain? Perhaps such conflicts could could create a completely unexpected trajectory for Sweden, especially if they were able to win one or two.

I think Sweden's best route to great power status would be, as others have observed, becoming a continental power based on union/dominion over protestant north Germany, the Baltic states, Norway, and Finland. If they could manage to conquer all the Baltic coast, Russia (or part of it) might easily become subservient. They were oh, so close, but lost their nerve.

I am the first person to herald the achievments of Russia any day, but Sweden didn't "lose their nerve" they were overstretched as it was, a population of two million havin'g to stand off against Muscovy, Denmark, and Norway. Muscovy then became Russia which just had to many people for Sweden to expand into.