How could Sweden become a great power?
- Thread starter paxau
- Start date
First off the population needs to expand a bit somehow!? Maybee massimmigration of germans? And an active population promotion by the crown, if this was feasible in the 17, 18 th century?!
In terms of land the only way to go was east and south-east, into russia, Novgorod. After taking these lands you`ll need to populate them, preferbly with loyal people, swedes/germans?!
Germans immigrated in masses to America so why not pick upp some of these immigrants with promises of land and generous tax exemptions in Karelia and Ingria.
Best chance of these areas beeing occupied would propblably be the great northern war with Charles XII defeating, possibly killing, Peter the Great wherby Sweden gains all land upp to the white sea and southwards toward Novgorod. Then yuo`d have a wassal king in Poland from whom you might get Kurland and maybee parts of Livonia, lots of land to establish control over and populate.
Then ofcourse thers Norway to conquer at first posibility.
In terms of land the only way to go was east and south-east, into russia, Novgorod. After taking these lands you`ll need to populate them, preferbly with loyal people, swedes/germans?!
Germans immigrated in masses to America so why not pick upp some of these immigrants with promises of land and generous tax exemptions in Karelia and Ingria.
Best chance of these areas beeing occupied would propblably be the great northern war with Charles XII defeating, possibly killing, Peter the Great wherby Sweden gains all land upp to the white sea and southwards toward Novgorod. Then yuo`d have a wassal king in Poland from whom you might get Kurland and maybee parts of Livonia, lots of land to establish control over and populate.
Then ofcourse thers Norway to conquer at first posibility.
Oddball
Monthly Donor
I agree regarding lack of population, but Im not so sure about the solution
Norwayand Finland/Karelia could possibly be colonized, but these lands are neither lands of milk and honey nor capable of large settlements
I agree regarding lack of population, but Im not so sure about the solution
Norwayand Finland/Karelia could possibly be colonized, but these lands are neither lands of milk and honey nor capable of large settlements
Agree, the only real asset would be the mineralrich Kola-peninsuala but it would not be accesible until the advent of the railroad basically.
Karelia would most likely be like northern sweden(Norrland), scarcely populated vast forests, Ingria on the other hand could sustain a farming community, and I think has potential just look at the St
etersburgh region of today(If i remember correctly theres something in the region of 8-10 million people living there today). Likewise Estonia, Livland and Courland has plenty of good farmland.Would a substanial german population lead to any problems? I can`t see that, it would be no different than the german colonisation in america that is untill the advent of german nationalism at least. After that it might cause some problems especially with a Gross-Deutchen Reich nearby, that is if the germans has not been absorbed into "swedish" by then.
BTW Oddball, any update to your excellent Northern Star timeline coming?
So you about Sigismund Augustus.Hmmm
Jagiellonian Poland IIRC, uptil 1552 (?
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
I think if Sweden encouraged German, Dutch, Scottish, and Huguenot immigration they could be assimilated in time, provided there's not more of them than there are Swedes. The problem is that the areas that are mostly Swedish aren't that desirable. People would want to move to the southern and eastern conquests, the Baltic provinces and Poland-Lithuania (if the personal union goes through), areas where there aren't that many Swedes.
Maybe we get a situation like England with Scotland. Loyalty without assimilation. Nationalism doesn't have to be the end of Sweden.
Maybe we get a situation like England with Scotland. Loyalty without assimilation. Nationalism doesn't have to be the end of Sweden.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
I'm sure they wanted Switzerland as well. Wanting something is not the same as getting it. (And the ethnic mix in the Baltic provinces might turn out to be very Swiss.)
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
And boy did the Swedes enjoy their time in the Kalmar Union...
But that wasn't because they had a problem with the concept of the Union, since it was the Swedish nobility that actually invited Margarethe to take the throne - it was the implementation that went bad under her successors.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
OK, I have the official AHP solution. The Rus don't move the capital from Novgorod to Kiev. That would have made Russia a Skandinavian state instead of a Slavic one and there you go. A Swedish empire with a huge population and resources.
Oh yes it worked in Skåne
After several generations of "Swedification" with all its happy gatherings and kind persuations...
Like the rest of Scandinavia
And boy did the Swedes enjoy their time in the Kalmar Union...
Oddball
Monthly Donor
Yepp, that is correct. But their invitation came out of necessity to get rid of their current king; Albrecht of Mechlemburg. It was not quite out of free will.
Anyway, as long as Margrete ruled it all came along nicely. It was when her adopted crown prince Erik of Pommerania became king it went bad
Oddball
Monthly Donor
Would that made Russia a Scandinavian state? Please remember that Finnland as an excample realy isnt considered "Scandinavian" for many purposes...
As this is prior to my knowhow of history, I would like you to elaborate a bit
Please
Another reason that Scania became more friendly to the Swedes is that the Danish army looted all and burned all villages during their march back to Denmark after the Scanian war.
So when the Danes invaded again the Scanians choose to side with the Swedes to avoid the kind of looting that happened before.
So when the Danes invaded again the Scanians choose to side with the Swedes to avoid the kind of looting that happened before.
Oddball
Monthly Donor
Scania
I seriousley doubt that we will ever agree to how Scania came to be a propper Swedish province.
From experience at this board, the teaching about this part of scandinavian history is wildley different in Sweden contra Denmark/Norway.
Im just not going there with you also, so Ill just let the issue rest
I seriousley doubt that we will ever agree to how Scania came to be a propper Swedish province.
From experience at this board, the teaching about this part of scandinavian history is wildley different in Sweden contra Denmark/Norway.
Im just not going there with you also, so Ill just let the issue rest
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Would that made Russia a Scandinavian state? Please remember that Finnland as an excample realy isnt considered "Scandinavian" for many purposes...
As this is prior to my knowhow of history, I would like you to elaborate a bit
Please
Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far... oops, wrong story. Early on the Rus were a Skandinavian polity with a center at Novgorod, which was close enough to Skandinavia for there to be communication and a steady stream of immigrants - I'm not sure of dates, but I mean the first millenium. Later on, the center was moved to Kiev, which was too far from Skandinavia for easy communications and the preponderance of Slavs meant that the Rus lost their Skandinavian character in favor of Slavdom. Hence Russia.
If everyone had stayed in Novgorod, the culture would likely have remained Skandinavian. That doesn't ensure political unity with Sweden, but it makes it at least possible, and gives you a pretty large population.
Oddball
Monthly Donor
Hmm, okey now Im getting what you said, but
I doubt you could label the "Novgorod Rus" Scandinavian. IIRC it was more like a few Viking "merchants" setting themselfes up as rulers over various Finno/Slavo tribes.
Remotly similar to what the Swedes did to "Finnland" much later.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Well, they spoke Scandinavian, their laws, rulers, and soldiers all were... I think that's good enough. Ethnicity is meaningless anyway.