Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Any important colony would quickly be lost to whatever foreign power would be pissed enough with their conquest of Denmark to go to war with them (most likely the Netherlands).
How could Sweden become a great power?
- Thread starter paxau
- Start date
I think that it would be pretty easy to overrun the Netherlands if they aren't allied with Spain.
Of course under condition that Sweden doesn't have to fight a 2 front war with Russia and the Netherlands.
Also the Netherlands isn't exactly known for the strength of their army as much as their navy.
Of course under condition that Sweden doesn't have to fight a 2 front war with Russia and the Netherlands.
Also the Netherlands isn't exactly known for the strength of their army as much as their navy.
I think Poland went Protestant for a short time before the Jesuit Order arrive and argued them back into the Catholic Church (no violence required).
A dynastic union with a Protestant P-L might be an interesting consequence of a no-Jesuits TL.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Sweden seems to have ample reserves of coal now, and has always been famous for its iron ore and for very high quality steel.
Coal is not a sine qua non for industrialisation, as the Japanese illustrate.
What would it take for Sweden to become a strong regional power in Europe today? And not just a union with the rest of Scandinavia, what else?
For several years after the British took New Amsterdam, They left The Swedes/Finns [There were more Finns than Swedes in the colony] keep their own, Laws and Rulers, The Swedes just got over run population wise by the new settlers under the British. When the second wave of Scandinavians arrived in the latter 1800's, they ignored Delaware and headed for the western Great Lakes Area.
I would like to see a TL based on the Swedes accepting the Danish Prince in 1809 instead of Berradotte, the French Marchall..
And then invading Finland in 1812 while Nappy is doing his Disaster in Russia.
I know that there are a few Swedes on this forum and i think that most of them (including me) probably would like a greater Sweden or a Swedish Empire.
So I'm asking under which circumstances could there be a Swedish Empire as strong as the UK or Germany?
Shouldn't this be titled "How could Sweden stay a great power"? The answer, Gustavus Adolphus isn't killed in battle.
Darkest
Banned
I have a more powerful Swedish Empire in my Berwick timeline. The British Commonwealth under Cromwell unifies with the Netherlands, and keeps them in check by dismantling (or stealing) most of their fleet, and establishing a military dictatorship over the Republic. While the Anglo-Dutch Commonwealth rules, Sweden invades Denmark (as in OTL). Cromwell decides against intervening.
Thus, the Netherlands doesn't save Denmark (Denmark would have been overrun without the Dutch Navy saving their butts). The Swedish Empire claims the Jutland peninsula and Norway, as well as Greenland and Iceland. Danish colonies are dissolved and claimed by other powers.
This Swedish Empire has under its control all of the Kalmar Union's territory and more, including the Baltics. It controls trade through the Baltics, which could make it very rich as well. Then, just have them hold their own when a conflict appears with the Russians. What a Great Power they could become. Within a hundred or so years, Danish patriotism will have disappeared. Imagine the possibilities of this new, great northern power!
Thus, the Netherlands doesn't save Denmark (Denmark would have been overrun without the Dutch Navy saving their butts). The Swedish Empire claims the Jutland peninsula and Norway, as well as Greenland and Iceland. Danish colonies are dissolved and claimed by other powers.
This Swedish Empire has under its control all of the Kalmar Union's territory and more, including the Baltics. It controls trade through the Baltics, which could make it very rich as well. Then, just have them hold their own when a conflict appears with the Russians. What a Great Power they could become. Within a hundred or so years, Danish patriotism will have disappeared. Imagine the possibilities of this new, great northern power!
I really don't think that this thread should be titled "How could Sweden stay a great power" because we had a lot of chances and screwed up every time.
It seems like you're thinking It all works out if Gustaf Adolf II doesn't die at Lützen.
But to establish an empire you need to "swedify" (Best english word i could come up with.
) the areas you've conquered and that doesn't take place in just 20-30 years.To do such a thing would take two or three generations.
But Skåne and Sweden were rather close culturally and linguistically.
The key for a surviving swedish great power is to take, and hold, Denmark proper. That would secure the southern and western border until the germans start to get their things together. Russia is another big problem, those baltic ports are so tempting for them. But they could be defeated in time.
EDIT: Skåne = Scania FYI
The key for a surviving swedish great power is to take, and hold, Denmark proper. That would secure the southern and western border until the germans start to get their things together. Russia is another big problem, those baltic ports are so tempting for them. But they could be defeated in time.
EDIT: Skåne = Scania FYI
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I don't think that many Scanians really wanted to be a part of Sweden during the 17th and 18th centuries and i believe that the reason for the Scanians disloyalty is that they didn't actually get to decide much in what they considered their own country.
I've been watching the series "Snapphanar" (I know it's a action series.) on Swedish television and i believe that if you would give Scania some amount of independence (and not bad Swedish rule) both they and the Swedes would be better of.
Like this let the Scanians handle themselves for some years and then fully integrate them when Denmark isn't a threat.
Redbeard
Banned
The Swedish zenith was in 17th century, but the problem here is that the other European powers were strong enough to prevent one power in gaining control over the Baltic entrances. This applied to both Denmark and Sweden and meant no matter how serioulsy one of the parts beat up the other the great powers would just intervene to reestablish balance - and await another Scandinavian war.
Going back earlier a united Scandinavia is likely to be Denmark swallowing Sweden, and later nationalism will prevent anything but loose unions.
I wonder if a PoD having Peter the Great fall in a battle vs. Karl XII could mean a Swedish Baltic/NE German Empire? With Russia falling back into the old modes Sweden will be given time to consolidate her holdings on the Baltic coast, and also be a serious rival with Brandenburg over East Prussia. I guess Poland/Saxony will be a primary opponent and this will perhaps also allow Sweden to consolidate without Great power interferrence, as long as they don't seriously mess up central European matters (incl. the Baltic entrances).
If both the Brandenburgers and Poles and Saxons can be stemmed the Swedish NE European Empire might be quite strong and with excellent pre-railway infrastructure (the Baltic sea and rivers giving access to most places).
Later the Polish/Galician and Saxon coal fields are inside potential reach of the early Swedish industrialism.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Going back earlier a united Scandinavia is likely to be Denmark swallowing Sweden, and later nationalism will prevent anything but loose unions.
I wonder if a PoD having Peter the Great fall in a battle vs. Karl XII could mean a Swedish Baltic/NE German Empire? With Russia falling back into the old modes Sweden will be given time to consolidate her holdings on the Baltic coast, and also be a serious rival with Brandenburg over East Prussia. I guess Poland/Saxony will be a primary opponent and this will perhaps also allow Sweden to consolidate without Great power interferrence, as long as they don't seriously mess up central European matters (incl. the Baltic entrances).
If both the Brandenburgers and Poles and Saxons can be stemmed the Swedish NE European Empire might be quite strong and with excellent pre-railway infrastructure (the Baltic sea and rivers giving access to most places).
Later the Polish/Galician and Saxon coal fields are inside potential reach of the early Swedish industrialism.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
I'm gonna have to read that.
But to establish an empire you need to "swedify" (Best english word i could come up with.
To do such a thing would take two or three generations.
It's the right word.
Being a "strong regional power" requires a government which is at least somewhat nationalistic and forceful in international affairs, which maintains a military force capable of defending critical interests and projecting force outside its borders, and which is willing to exert strong economic and political influence over smaller neighboring nations. I do not believe any modern Swedish political party likely to actuallly win an election would have these attributes.
That or etnic qlensing. That is something I don't like so that is why I suggested something that lead to better economy.
Assimilation is a type of ethnic cleansing. Just more sweat and less blood.
Redbeard, like your way of thinking:
A pod killing Peter the great could do the trick.
But also, any POD which would prevent Russia from uniting would be nice for Sweden as well. Imagine Sweden slowly going east, picking up one small state after the other.
Is an alternate Swedish Russia possible?
A pod killing Peter the great could do the trick.
But also, any POD which would prevent Russia from uniting would be nice for Sweden as well. Imagine Sweden slowly going east, picking up one small state after the other.
Is an alternate Swedish Russia possible?