How could Germany's economy have been better organized in World War 2?

Who won that war, again?
You don't defeat France with relatively paltry losses by being inefficient. Your argument is objectively flawed, for obvious reasons. The Wehrmacht early in the war was a relatively efficient machine, with good leadership, doctrine, etc., despite its moral bankruptcy. Stop bringing morality into discussions where it is irrelevant.
 
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You're being intentionally blind to the strengths of the Wehrmacht. The problem with ascribing everything to luck is that you don't take into account that it takes genuine skill to take full advantage of opportunity when it shows itself. Bad armies, when faced with good luck, fail to exploit it properly. An inefficient army would have failed to defeat France, even with luck. History is full of examples of armies failing to take advantage of crucial opportunities, where more competent armies would have exploited them.
 
Also, using one of your own posts as a source is not a good sign that your beliefs (that the Wehrmacht was totally incompetent and only won because of luck), are well-supported by the facts.
 
I’ll find the exact excerpt but Adam Tooze made a very good case in Wages of Destruction that the German war machine was as efficient as it feasibly could have been. Not to say that things like producing fewer models of armored vehicles and aircraft wouldn’t have helped.

Once we bear in mind the constraints under which it operated it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Third Reich was an extremely effective mobilizing regime. - Adam Tooze, Page 661 of Wages of Destruction
 
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You don't defeat France with relatively paltry losses by being inefficient. Your argument is objectively flawed, for obvious reasons. The Wehrmacht early in the war was a relatively efficient machine, with good leadership, doctrine, etc., despite its moral bankruptcy. Stop bringing morality into discussions where it is irrelevant.

Also, using one of your own posts as a source is not a good sign that your beliefs (that the Wehrmacht was totally incompetent and only won because of luck), are well-supported by the facts.

My reasoning is based on historical data which I discussed in that whole thread in detail. The French made a mistake in the disposition of their reserve in a highly restrictive battlespace and time interval. That is what actually happened. Where is the refutation based on competing data? Where? My post is an analysis which includes some of that history as presented in the cited article in that post.

As for morality, if the Berlin Maniac had any concern for his Wehrmacht, he would not have allowed it to die on the Volga.

Kind of incompetent and inefficient was the Herr and its goddamned evil state leader and the imbecilic corrupt military staff that served him.

As a contrast... moral leadership, efficient leadership, victorious leadership...

1280px-Franklin_D._Roosevelt%2C_General_MacArthur%2C_and_Admiral_Nimitz_in_Pearl_Harbor%2C_Hawaii_-_NARA_-_196366.jpg
File:Franklin D. Roosevelt, General MacArthur, and Admiral ...Nimitz...

Edit. BTW Tooze makes a damning case for German WWII incompetence. That was the whole purpose of the book; "Wages of Destruction"; to debunk the myth of Nazi economic/political efficiency. Immorality (theft, murder, wastage, balkanization and criminal dissipation of effort by gangsters.), was one of the root causes he identified.
 
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My reasoning is based on historical data which I discussed in that whole thread in detail. The French made a mistake in the disposition of their reserve in a highly restrictive battlespace and time interval. That is what actually happened. Where is the refutation based on competing data? Where? My post is an analysis which includes some of that history as presented in the cited article in that post.

As for morality, if the Berlin Maniac had any concern for his Wehrmacht, he would not have allowed it to die on the Volga.

Kind of incompetent and inefficient was the Herr and its goddamned evil state leader and the imbecilic corrupt military staff that served him.

As a contrast... moral leadership, efficient leadership, victorious leadership...

1280px-Franklin_D._Roosevelt%2C_General_MacArthur%2C_and_Admiral_Nimitz_in_Pearl_Harbor%2C_Hawaii_-_NARA_-_196366.jpg
File:Franklin D. Roosevelt, General MacArthur, and Admiral ...Nimitz...

Edit. BTW Tooze makes a damning case for German WWII incompetence. That was the whole purpose of the book; "Wages of Destruction"; to debunk the myth of Nazi economic/political efficiency. Immorality (theft, murder, wastage, balkanization and criminal dissipation of effort by gangsters.), was one of the root causes he identified.
None of those men were in any way moral in their dealings with the Germans or the Japanese. What they did was determined by strategy. Just the same as Stalin and Hitler did. If we were truly moral, we would not have caged thousands upon thousands of innocent Japanese, firebombed German and Japanese cities, or have deported millions of ethnic Germans back into the Reich in cattle cars.

Edit: All this is a digression. Who would have been best suited to set up the German war economy before World War 2 and expand it during the conflict?
 
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None of those men were in any way moral in their dealings with the Germans or the Japanese. What they did was determined by strategy. Just the same as Stalin and Hitler did. If we were truly moral, we would not have caged thousands upon thousands of innocent Japanese, firebombed German and Japanese cities, or have deported millions of ethnic Germans back into the Reich in cattle cars.
Stalin and Hitler slaughtered millions in utter military imbecility. Take a look at CARTWHEEL by contrast to see how it should be done. MacArthur was not necessarily any more capable than Paulus, but HE was constrained by the necessity to make war morally as well as efficiently. Send shells, not men. Bypass dug in Japanese garrisons and let the 14th Area army starve.

The morality (military I must emphasize) was to move fast and minimize own casualties as much as possible and to convince the enemy, that this war that HE started was a very bad and immoral idea for him.

Japan: Article 9 of the Constitution | Law Library of Congress

We, the Japanese people, … resolved that never again shall we be visited with the horrors of war through the action of government….

We … desire peace for all time … and we have determined to preserve our security and existence, trusting in the justice and faith of the peace-loving peoples of the world.[2]
Hmmm. You know how strange it is to me, that someone would write...

None of those men were in any way moral in their dealings with the Germans or the Japanese

When Eisenhower commanded this be done?


American general, a victorious one, who made sure that the criminal regime's polity had no excuse at all, to deny what was done in their name.

I will point out as an aside that killing one's own citizens and tying up 8% of the transport system in the middle of a war to the death, to feed these murder camps, sure is "efficient war-making".

That is a data fact by the way. A lot of draftable German men, were singled out and murdered because of their identification as "state enemies" on the basis of a bigot's racist hatred, which was incidentally shared by enough of the polity so that it was accepted as state sanctioned policy.

At least the racist Americans in the war did not waste their own "excluded citizens" by murdering them. Those "excluded citizens" built the Alcan highway and the Burma Road instead. Morality in war equals efficiency.

Just saying.
 
Ok, lemme get back to basics, what would have been the most efficient system for the Germans to have adopted before and during the war?
 
Ok, lemme get back to basics, what would have been the most efficient system for the Germans to have adopted before and during the war?
By not electing the nazis in the first place. Their economical policies are horseshit and scams right from the start
 
Ok, lemme get back to basics, what would have been the most efficient system for the Germans to have adopted before and during the war?
By not electing the nazis in the first place. Their economical policies are horseshit and scams right from the start
Then who was Hjalmar Schacht?
 
Ok, lemme get back to basics, what would have been the most efficient system for the Germans to have adopted before and during the war?
A system in which a war is planned to start in a certain year from the start and Hitler’s brinkmanship is tempered until that time so as to not plunge the country into a war while not ready for it. Combine that with war production ministry that can and will plan for the conduct of said war production and secure stockpiling of vital non importable resources Inside Germany for the planned duration of the war in sufficient quantities that a blockade doesn’t cause immediate crisis. Then plan the modernization and upgrade programs as well as military expansion in manageable manner. The Nazi germany fully went in on military expansion and while recent economic data suggests that it was not as ruinous as believed before that effort could not be kept up for half a decade more.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
As many posters on this thread decline once again into :
"uh, Nazis, uh stupid baaad thuggies, no way not being bashed by the moraly only to be glorioled 'White Knights of anglophone World' "​
"uh, (invokingly adorational background music) TOOZE; uh ..."​
(no, I personnaly don't render canonized writers and their bibles - aka "Wages of destruction" - as the end and pinnacle of considerations of german possibilities)​

I wonder were it was actually asked in the OP for the Nazis of OTL being in charge of germany ?
As far as I read it some OTL personalities were - IMHO - only used descriptional OF OTL.

... but as it seems there aren't that many able to think that germany and its people of this period would/could NOT be nazi of OTL.
 
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A system in which a war is planned to start in a certain year from the start and Hitler’s brinkmanship is tempered until that time so as to not plunge the country into a war while not ready for it. Combine that with war production ministry that can and will plan for the conduct of said war production and secure stockpiling of vital non importable resources Inside Germany for the planned duration of the war in sufficient quantities that a blockade doesn’t cause immediate crisis. Then plan the modernization and upgrade programs as well as military expansion in manageable manner. The Nazi germany fully went in on military expansion and while recent economic data suggests that it was not as ruinous as believed before that effort could not be kept up for half a decade more.
So, Hitler's planning actually seems sensible on a strategic level. His step by step program of first taking Austria then Czechoslovakia seems relatively rational. Pivoting west to take the Low Countries and France seems reasonable to provide himself of another source of labor and raw material, along with a suitable base for bombing and invading Britain once the Soviet Union was properly dealt with. Then a triumphant sweep into the Middle East and Africa, and Hitler would have it made. His big problem was that he didn't take advantage of the resources he had at his disposal, and he didn't design the army to fight the Soviet Union properly. So who could have ensured the Army could get the job done on the economic front?
 
Then who was Hjalmar Schacht?
The man who engineered Hitler's opening military buildup and economic strategy. MEFO Bills, etc. He resigned over the realization that war was an inevitability, and Hitler was not pursuing a sustainable rearmament program, but a crash rearmament that could only be sustained by the outbreak of war.
 
Stalin and Hitler slaughtered millions in utter military imbecility. Take a look at CARTWHEEL by contrast to see how it should be done. MacArthur was not necessarily any more capable than Paulus, but HE was constrained by the necessity to make war morally as well as efficiently. Send shells, not men. Bypass dug in Japanese garrisons and let the 14th Area army starve.

The morality (military I must emphasize) was to move fast and minimize own casualties as much as possible and to convince the enemy, that this war that HE started was a very bad and immoral idea for him.

Japan: Article 9 of the Constitution | Law Library of Congress


Hmmm. You know how strange it is to me, that someone would write...



When Eisenhower commanded this be done?


American general, a victorious one, who made sure that the criminal regime's polity had no excuse at all, to deny what was done in their name.

I will point out as an aside that killing one's own citizens and tying up 8% of the transport system in the middle of a war to the death, to feed these murder camps, sure is "efficient war-making".

That is a data fact by the way. A lot of draftable German men, were singled out and murdered because of their identification as "state enemies" on the basis of a bigot's racist hatred, which was incidentally shared by enough of the polity so that it was accepted as state sanctioned policy.

At least the racist Americans in the war did not waste their own "excluded citizens" by murdering them. Those "excluded citizens" built the Alcan highway and the Burma Road instead. Morality in war equals efficiency.

Just saying.
The problem with your statements, is that you seem unwilling to separate the Nazi Party Administration's poor administrative management from the tactically proficiency of the early Wehrmacht. They were not one and the same, even with the high level of cooperation between the two in war crimes, etc. And mind you, pointing out that Germany lost the war as being a sign the German army was totally incompetent is disingenuous at best. No army of the time could be realistically expected to fight four great powers and come out on top. The late-war fall in quality of the Wehrmacht was not because they lost their morals (they'd lost them long ago), but because they could not sustain the high level of attrition a fight against the USSR would entail.
 
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Then who was Hjalmar Schacht?
Dude who created the mefo bills that able Germany to take on a whole lot of debt which were unsustainable in the first place due to lack of foreign reserves ( which nazis Germany “solved” by seizing other countries foreign reserves)
 
As many posters on this thread decline once again into :
"uh, Nazis, uh stupid baaad thuggies, no way not being bashed by the moraly only to be glorioled 'White Knights of anglophone World' "​
"uh, (invokingly adorational background music) TOOZE; uh ..."​
(no, I personnaly don't render canonized writers and their bibles - aka "Wages of destruction" - as the end and pinnacle of considerations of german possibilities)​

I wonder were it was actually asked in the OP for the Nazis of OTL being in charge of germany ?
As far as I read it some OTL personalities were - IMHO - only used descitional OF OTL.

... but as it seems there aren't that many able to think that germany and its people of this period would/could NOT be nazi of OTL.
Actually, I have enough imagination to understand the 60 attempts on the Berlin Maniac's life. BUT, I also understand why if not Nazi, then some general form of psychotic, sociopathic political movement, based on a hate ideology, was bound to emerge from the conditions that prevailed in the region. Not just the Germans, either. Different thread subject and requires another thread to cover it, but FASCISM was a rather popular movement among many polities.
 
The problem with your statements, is that you seem unwilling to separate the Nazi Party Administration's poor administrative management from the tactically proficiency of the early Wehrmacht.
Because it cannot be.
They were not one and the same, even with the high level of cooperation between the two in war crimes, etc.
They were. Ordinate and sub-ordinate. One gave the orders and the other obeyed.
And mind you, pointing out that Germany lost the war as being a sign the German army was totally incompetent is disingenuous at best. No army of the time could be realistically expected to fight four great powers and come out on top.
a. The Americans sustained their allies and fought a seven front war besides. So that bird does not fly.
b. Incompetence (Berlin Maniac and his co-conspirators and allies) is placing oneself in the position of fighting FDR and his administration. After meeting Schact, Hitler's envoy on the reparations question, and being told that Germany repudiated her obligations to the USG by the WWI peace treaties in effect, FDR had a one word answer to that message; "Bastard." and he vowed to get Hitler.
but because they could not sustain the high level of attrition a fight against the USSR would entail.
Example of how immorality leads to inefficient war-making.

a. Stalin murders millions of Ukrainians.
b. Ukrainians could be useful allies against the Russians.
c. Therefore since Ukrainians are "under-men" let us murder millions of them, too; according to our government's sanctioned ideology, and drive them into the arms of Stalin and turn them against us.

German military logic.

a. Tito is a communist.
b. Tito is an ideological enemy to our capitalist system.
c. Tito is busy killing Germans and their fellow travelers as part of his national war of liberation to turn Yugoslavia communist.
d. Therefore Tito is helping us and we should help him in spite of his communism..
e. Postwar this might make him friendlier to us, than if we do not help him.

Postwar, THAT HAPPENED. Tito was a "non-aligned" communist.

Can one smell the (military) morality at work?

American military logic.
 
Because it cannot be.

They were. Ordinate and sub-ordinate. One gave the orders and the other obeyed.

a. The Americans sustained their allies and fought a seven front war besides. So that bird does not fly.
b. Incompetence (Berlin Maniac and his co-conspirators and allies) is placing oneself in the position of fighting FDR and his administration. After meeting Schact, Hitler's envoy on the reparations question, and being told that Germany repudiated her obligations to the USG by the WWI peace treaties in effect, FDR had a one word answer to that message; "Bastard." and he vowed to get Hitler.

Example of how immorality leads to inefficient war-making.

a. Stalin murders millions of Ukrainians.
b. Ukrainians could be useful allies against the Russians.
c. Therefore since Ukrainians are "under-men" let us murder millions of them, too; according to our government's sanctioned ideology, and drive them into the arms of Stalin and turn them against us.

German military logic.

a. Tito is a communist.
b. Tito is an ideological enemy to our capitalist system.
c. Tito is busy killing Germans and their fellow travelers as part of his national war of liberation to turn Yugoslavia communist.
d. Therefore Tito is helping us and we should help him in spite of his communism..
e. Postwar this might make him friendlier to us, than if we do not help him.

Postwar, THAT HAPPENED. Tito was a "non-aligned" communist.

Can one smell the (military) morality at work?

American military logic.
Your logic is full of holes.

America fighting on seven fronts is not saying much. They were fighting all over the pacific, against only 2 powers, which had far inferior industrial strength. It's not remotely comparable to how bad Germany's situation was. Your argument that America had it as bad as Germany is alone enough to discredit you.
 
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