How could Germany defeat the USSR in WWII?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Germans are not stupid. I believe it was the fear of what may have happened, had they failed to achieve complete victory. In other words they were scared of what would happen if they pissed off Russians but came short of finishing them off. Thats why they never negotiated a war with Soviets that could be led in stages, one step at a time. They underestimated them yet not quite. Perhaps the image of bolshevick beasts they invented held them in check and prevented to make more resonable decisions

Germans may not be stupid, but the Nazis were so drunk on the most rabid ideology in human history as to be indistinguishable from idiots when it came to certain decisions - and the whole, "Let's make sure that the the world knows that no matter what we say, we can't be trusted" thing was one of them.

Especially when it came to dealing with that highly sensitive and suspicious Slavic state to the East.

About the only way the Germans could do better is less of trying to do everything at once with too few resources, and that would only really work if there was some way the USSR could give up in this kind of truly total war.

Plain and simple, Hitler made victory have to be complete - and there's no way Germany is going to utterly erase the USSR.
 

sharlin

Banned
Nazi germany could not have beaten the Soviet Union. A more rational germany might have stood a chance against a more rational Russian leader...but this is Nazi Germany. So no. No chance at all.
 
Nazi germany could not have beaten the Soviet Union. A more rational germany might have stood a chance against a more rational Russian leader...but this is Nazi Germany. So no. No chance at all.

A more rational Germany wouldn't have invaded at all.
 
After all, "defeating the USSR" doesn't necessarily mean conquering it - if we have a sane Germany and not OTL's, though that kind of butterflies away WWII.
 
Germans are not stupid. I believe it was the fear of what may have happened, had they failed to achieve complete victory. In other words they were scared of what would happen if they pissed off Russians but came short of finishing them off. Thats why they never negotiated a war with Soviets that could be led in stages, one step at a time. They underestimated them yet not quite. Perhaps the image of bolshevick beasts they invented held them in check and prevented to make more resonable decisions

We talking the same bunch that made the USSR as a means to knock Imperial Russia out of WWI, sent Adolf Hitler to spy on the DAP to ensure that it wasn't a nasty socialist movement, and that engaged in a pattern dominated by the stupid use of force? Ordinary Germans may not be stupid, but their leaders for the first half of the 20th Century sure the Hell were.
 
Sorry but this all seems strangely familiar.


An OP named after a Nazi war plane asking about how to make Germany win the war.


The OP then gives their own theories on how it could be done by making a wish list in which the Nazis are a little smarter while the Russians remain stupid.


Didn't something like this appear a few weeks ago under the name Stuka1944?
 
The idea of a halt in German operations in the Center after Smolensk, with Typhoon being cancelled in favor of rest and recovery is a simple POD which could feasibly be worked out provided Hitler believes that an advance on Moscow in the fall would prove ill advised. I don't think it's a stretch to say that he could have come to that conclusion. So let's look at the pros and cons of such a halt:

Pros:

1. Manpower losses are certainly less than those sufferd during Typhoon.

2. German strategic defensive position is better, with fewer salients and awkward twists and turns.

3. Infantry divisions can be better distributed along the front.

4. Logistics can to some degree be improved.

5. Divisions have time to entrench and rest.

Cons:

1. A halt essentially hands the Red Army the strategic initiative without a fight. Even with German tactical superiority this is a bad thing.

2. The Red Army will likely launch counteroffensives. Not very succesful ones, but they will be very costly and irritating for both sides.

3. The Red Army wins several valuable months to regroup. Rather than losing multiple fronts during Typhoon it can recuuperate essentially unchecked.

4. Several hundred thousand men lost during Typhoon, along with equipment, remain availiable for use.

5. The Heer cannot halt operations along the entire front. In the center yes, but not in the north and south. Thus counteroffensives will still strike overextended forces in those areas, ever moreso than IOTL.

6. The Red Army as time to plan a counteroffensive. IOTL the Moscow counterattack was designed first and foremost to drive the Germans from the outskirts. Only a month later was it expanded into an attempt to destroy Center as a whole. So instead of planning as it advances, STAVKA can conceive an operational design without having to rush into an offensive.

So while a winter halt does help the Heer, it greatly speeds up the Red Army's recovery. Both sides benefit equally from an operatonal lull. Further I'm rather critical of the idea that the heer can critically improve it's supply situation in time to properly equip all units and supply them. Better than OTL, but not to the degree that it has a decisive impact.

In conclusion the Red Army will likely drive the Germans from the region east of Lenungrad and the Rostov region as per OTL. Further counterattacks will see the Germans lose key portions of the western Donbass. The Leningrad blackade may also be lossened earlier than OTL, but the region's geography prevents the Red Army from achieving any effective victory until much later. Center will come under the heaviest pressure, especially 2nd Army and 2nd Panzer Army, along with 6th Army further south. The Red army will take the line of Kharkov-Oboian-Kursk-Orel-Briansk but will stall before further gains can be made, except in more local salients. Other parts of enter and south will also buckle, but there will be no Toropets-Kholm breakthroughs. Losses will be very heavy on both sides; not as bad as OTL but still crippling for the Heer in the long run. By Spring the Red Army will have achieved noticeable advances, but just as IOTl the Heer will be ready to resume it's advance. Oddly it's target will likely be Moscow, the most realistic target due to the defeats in the south.


Typhoon was a first rate disaster for the Germans; and the pluses of cancelling it far out weight the minuses

German manpower was heavily limited; at the start of Barbarossa the German military had conscripted 85 percent of service worthy males between 18-45... they simply couldn't afford the 300k losses they took in the second stage of the campaign, whereas the Russian conscription net was much wider, more effective, and papered over by lend lease.

Not only where those men and their equipment irreplaceable, they were largely driven back to their pre typhoon lines anyway minus the orel and rhzev bulges at the end of the year.

The grand total of the battles two stages ended up being ~330k germans for ~900k Russians, (plus unbelievable equipment losses to both sides) which was something Germany couldn't afford period.

If they went with Hitler's first instinct and Rundstead/Kluge's recommendation that the army was spent after Kiev, and that they should do some minor line straitening followed up with taking winter quarters to resume the offensive after the spring thaw they would have come out much better

They could have supplied on that line and the Russians were still largely reeling from the disasters at Smolensk and Kiev which would have given the Germans the necessary breathing space to build a workable defensive system, restock ammo/lost equipment, bring up replacements/reintegrate wounded, distribute winter clothing and conduct service on worn out weapons (especially the panzers) which would have made them a tough not to dislodge

The Russians meanwhile are spared the immediate destruction of 40 divisions of raw ill equipped militia in the Vyzama and Briansk encirclements... the combat value of those formations in September was 0. It's unlikely they could be whipped into something useful before the end of the year, and Zhukov is still a good 8-12 weeks from having those 3 good siberian armies brought to the front so Stalin's strategic options for attack are small and likely to be laced with frustration and high casualties for the moment.

The question becomes, would Stalin be content to sit supine over the late fall and winter whilst the Germans are camped out on national territory. Admittedly the rest would be great for the Russians, but would he go for just camping out after getting crushed (and losing face politically with the Americans and British as he said the city would hold) at Kiev
 
If they went with Hitler's first instinct and Rundstead/Kluge's recommendation that the army was spent after Kiev, and that they should do some minor line straitening followed up with taking winter quarters to resume the offensive after the spring thaw they would have come out much better

What kind of line straightening would you do at that point.

Do still stry to take before winter:

a) Crimea?
b) Thikvin?
c) Kharkov?

Without Typhoon, I am guessing the Russians could reinforce those places so probably not.

I suspect the Germans, if they stopped themselves early September would also be able to reinforce the air forces at Malta from the eastern front as occurred in middle of November OTL, perhaps thus they could stop Crusader and be able to take Malta and Tobruk in the Winter.

I was also thinking the Demansyk airlift was a huge resource killer for the Luftwaffe, that could be avoided here and really stopped pilot training for a while (al the training Ju52s being used), here this could be avoided.
 
What kind of line straightening would you do at that point.

Do still stry to take before winter:

a) Crimea?
b) Thikvin?
c) Kharkov?

Without Typhoon, I am guessing the Russians could reinforce those places so probably not.

I suspect the Germans, if they stopped themselves early September would also be able to reinforce the air forces at Malta from the eastern front as occurred in middle of November OTL, perhaps thus they could stop Crusader and be able to take Malta and Tobruk in the Winter.

I was also thinking the Demansyk airlift was a huge resource killer for the Luftwaffe, that could be avoided here and really stopped pilot training for a while (al the training Ju52s being used), here this could be avoided.

If the Germans stop, the USSR may well devote the strength sent to defend Moscow IOTL to the relief of Leningrad instead. The terrain would be their biggest enemy in that fighting as it generally was, but I could easily see the USSR trying to relieve the old capital and at the very least free up industry and prevent worse starvation. Their decision to do this might also gain them some advantages of surprise against the Germans, which would at least do *something* for the Soviets.
 
It might be helpful to approach this by defining the maximum possible shapes of German victory and seeing what those victories buy them. I think you'll see that even the maximum German victory in the east leaves the Germans far weaker than most people assume.

Before I go on, I want to emphasize that I'm not at this point interested in how feasible these German victories were. I'm just interested in the aftermath of those victories if by some combination of German luck and Soviet errors the Germans won them.

Maximum possible German victory: The Germans were not going to occupy all or even most of the Soviet Union. The best even marginally possible German victory could come in one of three forms:

(1) The Germans take enough of the economically important parts of the Soviet Union to take the Soviet Union out of the Great Power category, leaving them as sort of a Nationalist China analog written large--still fighting but only tying up a manageable percentage of German power. That would probably require most of the following (a) Making the rail nexus around Moscow unavailable to the Soviets, (b) Strangling Leningrad to the extent that it was no longer producing significant military power (manpower and weapons) (c) Taking enough of the good Soviet farmland to keep the Soviets from feeding themselves (d) Denying Soviets access to the Caucasus oil (e) Limiting the amount of manufacturing capability that the Soviets are able to move to safety.

(2) The Soviets accept some sort of separate peace that gives the Germans the most important parts of what they want.

(3) The Soviet regime disintegrates, like the Tsarist one did, leaving a power vacuum.

Before you jump in to argue that none of those are likely or possible, let me emphasize again that I don't really care about feasibility for the moment. I'm just trying to explore the consequences if the Germans got as much of what they wanted in the east as they could have under the most favorable circumstances.

Under any of those victory conditions, the Germans have a continued bleeding wound in the east. The whole point of heading east was to exploit Slavs as part of a process that eventually enslaved them or replaced them with Germans or related 'racially acceptable' people. Under those conditions, partisan warfare in the conquered territories was a given. The size of those territories, the scarcity of roads and the good guerrilla terrain--swamps and forests would mean that winning that partisan war would be long and difficult as long as somebody from outside was supplying a significant amount of weapons. Even if the Soviet Union collapsed or made peace, significant arms production capability would still exist outside German control. The Soviets would almost certainly not halt shipments to partisans in the long term, though they might reduce it in the short term as part of a peace treaty.

The more of the Soviet Union the Germans took, the larger the number of occupation troops they would need. If any significant part of the Soviet Union remained outside German hands, the Germans would have to station significant numbers of troops along the border between the conquered and unconquered areas. Even if the border was lightly guarded in any one spot, the sheer length of it would require a large number of troops. The western Allies would not face anything close to the full might of the German army, even under the most favorable conditions in the east.

While the parts of the Soviet Union the Germans could feasibly conquer have a lot of natural resources, the infrastructure to exploit those resources would take years and enormous resources to build, especially given Soviet scorched earth policies, partisans and German policies that at least initially were impractical. We're talking an enormous investment in roads, railroads, farm equipment, etc.

If the Germans were still fighting the Western Allies, they would have to choose to some extent between war production and building infrastructure in the east. Granted, they would be able to exploit the manpower from conquered territories to do some of the building, but even that would take away from war production that slave labor would otherwise be used for.

Figure the Germans would be somewhat stronger than they were historically by 1943-44 given maximum feasible victory in the east, but by no means would they be the colossus that the Allies feared would result if the Soviets collapsed. The war might last several months to a year or two longer, depending on how many A-bombs the Germans were willing to eat, but ultimately the Germans would lose.

At that point, the western Allies would inherit all of the disputes in Central and Eastern Europe that the Soviets brutally settled after World War II historically. German nationalists in Danzig? Settled. They either fled, died or decided they weren't really Germans. German nationalists in Sudetenland? Settled. For the most part they aren't there anymore. Polish/Ukrainian fighting in the borderlands? Settled. Not many Poles left to fight there. Stalin put Poland on wheels and moved it west a few hundred miles.

Massive ethnic cleansing, yes. Brutal, unfair, bloody? Yep. But Stalin permanently settled quarrels that were hundreds of years old. I doubt that the Western Allies would have been able to do that.
 
After all, "defeating the USSR" doesn't necessarily mean conquering it - if we have a sane Germany and not OTL's, though that kind of butterflies away WWII.

Or at the very least would mean a very different kind of war. A more rational Germany might well defeat the USSR in a war, but such a defeat would aim at some kind of objective, perhaps actually attempting to with some fair degree of success to limit itself to defeating the Red Army as a means to concessions of some sort. A more rational Germany, however, would not launch itself into one war it has no means to end and then dramatically escalate it for a war it was warned before getting into it had only one end: a bad one.
 
If the Germans stop, the USSR may well devote the strength sent to defend Moscow IOTL to the relief of Leningrad instead. The terrain would be their biggest enemy in that fighting as it generally was, but I could easily see the USSR trying to relieve the old capital and at the very least free up industry and prevent worse starvation. Their decision to do this might also gain them some advantages of surprise against the Germans, which would at least do *something* for the Soviets.

if the 4th panzer army doesn't come south; the germans should be able to hold most of their positions close to the city even if the 3 good siberian armies are committed there
 
if the 4th panzer army doesn't come south; the germans should be able to hold most of their positions close to the city even if the 3 good siberian armies are committed there

At the same time the Soviets were able to break the Siege in 1943 even though the bulk of Nazi strength around the city remained intact. Something like Operation Iskra against the less-consolidated defenses of winter 1941-2 might actually be plausible, sparing the USSR at least some of the major death tolls from the famine. And freeing up the logistics tied up to a greater extent by the Road of Life.
 
At the same time the Soviets were able to break the Siege in 1943 even though the bulk of Nazi strength around the city remained intact. Something like Operation Iskra against the less-consolidated defenses of winter 1941-2 might actually be plausible, sparing the USSR at least some of the major death tolls from the famine. And freeing up the logistics tied up to a greater extent by the Road of Life.

They broke through when AGN had no appreciable panzer forces to defend itself and had most of it's air support stripped away.

If the three good siberian armies (the only really potent force zhukov will have for the rest of the year) have to go all the way to Leningrad, they may not be available to attack before christmas; and given the otl 41 weather patterns might have an extremely difficult time assembling, artillery spotting and keeping track of where the hell they are as they advance

the more effective place to attack would be at the junction of the 2nd and 6th armies on whatever line they would stop on after the fall of kiev where the force to space ratios are a lot lower and terrain even if in bad weather is more suited to armored offensives
 
If the Germans stop, the USSR may well devote the strength sent to defend Moscow IOTL to the relief of Leningrad instead. The terrain would be their biggest enemy in that fighting as it generally was, but I could easily see the USSR trying to relieve the old capital and at the very least free up industry and prevent worse starvation. Their decision to do this might also gain them some advantages of surprise against the Germans, which would at least do *something* for the Soviets.

I guess the Germans would have from until September 18th (when the withdrew the Panzer Army for Typhoon) to October 2nd (where the Russians would have reinforcments available that went to Moscow OTL) to get ahead of where they were OTL, and some more luftwaffe available to pick on the Ladoga barge traffic, so maybe this evens out against the extra Soviet ability to counterattack the place later.

I wonder though if it just defeats the whole point of the TL, the Soviets use their extra militia style divisions lost at Typhoon in high loss counter attacks, the Germans mostly defeat these cold, but occasionally break through, meaning the October thru Winter losses are about OTL on both sides, making the whole thing sort of end up the same. Some of the equipment losses OTL were probably Panzer IIs and Panzer IIIs with 37mm guns, 37 mm ATGs and stuff that would have been obsolete and have to be replaced anyway. Perhaps the Germans do a little better but having Kharkov and Stalino still producing for the Soviets offsets this.
 
I guess the Germans would have from until September 18th (when the withdrew the Panzer Army for Typhoon) to October 2nd (where the Russians would have reinforcments available that went to Moscow OTL) to get ahead of where they were OTL, and some more luftwaffe available to pick on the Ladoga barge traffic, so maybe this evens out against the extra Soviet ability to counterattack the place later.

I wonder though if it just defeats the whole point of the TL, the Soviets use their extra militia style divisions lost at Typhoon in high loss counter attacks, the Germans mostly defeat these cold, but occasionally break through, meaning the October thru Winter losses are about OTL on both sides, making the whole thing sort of end up the same. Some of the equipment losses OTL were probably Panzer IIs and Panzer IIIs with 37mm guns, 37 mm ATGs and stuff that would have been obsolete and have to be replaced anyway. Perhaps the Germans do a little better but having Kharkov and Stalino still producing for the Soviets offsets this.

Honestly, the Germans took more Soviet territory under Hitler than the Kaiser took from Lenin, but it didn't do them a bit of good. If they take less, it does them even less good than what they took IOTL did. So.....yeah.
 
The question becomes, would Stalin be content to sit supine over the late fall and winter whilst the Germans are camped out on national territory. Admittedly the rest would be great for the Russians, but would he go for just camping out after getting crushed (and losing face politically with the Americans and British as he said the city would hold) at Kiev

Earlier in my scenario I mentioned that the Soviet will likely launch numerous small scale attacks along the front while reorganizing their more powerful formations in reserve for a well planned counterattack in the center. Further, greater strength than IOTL will be concentrated in the north and south, making the defeats there even more damaging than OTl. A Soviet penetration of the Mius is more than possible.
 
Or at the very least would mean a very different kind of war. A more rational Germany might well defeat the USSR in a war, but such a defeat would aim at some kind of objective, perhaps actually attempting to with some fair degree of success to limit itself to defeating the Red Army as a means to concessions of some sort. A more rational Germany, however, would not launch itself into one war it has no means to end and then dramatically escalate it for a war it was warned before getting into it had only one end: a bad one.

Yeah. I can, looking at OTL Germany's resources, imagine scenarios where the Wehrmacht isn't wearing "kick me" signs after the initial phase of the invasion.

But sooner or latter it becomes irrelevant unless Germany's aims are something the USSR can accept, and "utter annihilation" isn't one of those things for Russia. Even the Mongols offered better terms, and they had a far greater ability to deliver that on Russians who refused to cooperate than the Nazis.

That's what I don't get, looking at strategic decisions (since tactically was generally well done by the Germans).
 
Last edited:
Yeah. I can, looking at OTL Germany's resources, imagine scenarios where the Wehrmacht wearing "kick me" signs after the initial phase of the invasion.

But sooner or latter it becomes irrelevant unless Germany's aims are something the USSR can accept, and "utter annihilation" isn't one of those things for Russia. Even the Mongols offered better terms, and they had a far greater ability to deliver that on Russians who refused to cooperate than the Nazis.

That's what I don't get, looking at strategic decisions (since tactically was generally well done by the Germans).

Which is the root of the Catch-22. The Nazis have no means to keep the British from entering a war with them and staying there, and they have no means of delivering a German victory over the USSR. Thus the Nazis are precisely that unenviable combination of too menacing to consider negotiations with and too feckless to actually win.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top