How could France defeat the Royal Navy successfully?

Hey Guys,

As you probably know during the French Revolutionary Wars and of course the Napoleonic Wars the Royal Navy caused massive disruptions for the French armies, as although they dominated the continent, the British could (with relative ease) land an invasion force anywhere they liked, and this would of course lead to the Peninsular War and also the halting of any hope Napoleon could've had at created a new French Colonial Empire.

My question to you all is this: How could you have the Royal Navy be beat so much that it would pose no real threat to the French in either a colonial Empire or on the continent? Now I'm not interested in an invasion of Britain, but I would like the Royal Navy to be able to defend no further than the shores of Great Britain and Ireland.

How could you do this without many butterflies involved if it needs to be early?
 
The French must avoid a general engagement unless the odds are extremely in their favor. In the Napoleonic Wars if the French avoid the battle of Aboukir Bay and Trafalgar they could put together a grand coalition of French, Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish and finally Russian navies. All together they could overmatch the RN two to one. That could force the RN to remain close to the home islands while allowing the French some flexibility.
 
If you are looking at keeping the butterflies post-1793 I cannot think of minor alterations which would produce a dominant French Navy.

With respect to the quality of ships there was no significant absolute difference in the quality of a ship built by the English, French or Spanish. Although the English had the advantage of copper sheathed hulls after 1780 (they had been experimenting with them since 1760 in a serious way).

As for simply trying to throw more ships against the British during the American War of Independence the British were at war with naval power #2 (France), #3 (Spain), and #4 (Netherlands) at the same time. Outside of the aforementioned powers there are not a huge number of ship-of-the-line that can be scraped up from the minor powers.

The advantages of the British rest almost entirely within their ability to finance, administrate, and provide officers and seamen to the navy. When the Bank of England was created most of the first issue was spent on the Navy - and the largess continued after that. The Navy Board and the associated ship yards were the largest industrial enterprise in Europe at the time. In ships they were contemporary, in administration they were two generations ahead of the curve.

The relative advantages of the Royal Navy over the rest of the world go back to the 1740's in an attenuated fashion and significantly after the 7 Year's War.

For a more dominant France consider the following possibilities
-France needs an army and likes to have a navy. It needs to like that navy a lot more after the 1740's.
-Not having Law bankrupt the country in 1720. The lack of a central bank hindered France.
-France creates an equivalent to the Admiralty and professionalises the officers more thoroughly.
-France liberalises its East India Company and colonial trade laws
 
Has anybody forgotten 1066 and all that?

That doesn't have anything to do with the French Revolution... As well you might talk about the danger Mongolia posed to Russia during the Russian Civil War, because Mongolia had conquered Russia several hundred years before.
 
The French Fleet would never stand any change on a long term war with the UK, as it might have had better ships and equipment, but lacked the men trained to use them. Unless the French started to train and operate sailing warships in the 17th century, meanine a century before the period of the Revolution, they woudl alsways have a serious disadvantage in quality to the British, who were much more eductated in navigation and operational status, due to the more structured form of the Royal Navy.

Operating a sailing fleet of warships requires lots of experience and skills, not learned in a few years, but over the long term of naval history of a nation. Compared to eachother only the Royal Navy and the `Staatse Vloot` of the Republic of the United Provinces were top level institutes, while Spain was trailing behind and France even more.

Operational discipline and skills of the officercorps were essential in this, which the French completely lacked, due to the often ilballanced policy of the governments. This was France´s main problem, which it coulkd never correct on short notice.
 
The Swedish navy was at its zenith 1785 or so and had a decent showing in the Russo-Swedish war of 1790, but after that it went into decline. The Swedish navy was never a force for the salty seas, it was to dominate the Baltics, which are forzen over 3-5 months per year.

Besides, Sweden was completely anti-Napoleonic. That was why we lost Finland.

You need the Republican Government to invest more in the navy (which would be strange since they were fighting for their life against Prussia and Austria, two countries which hardly can be hurt by a navy). You need more professional officers, round-the-year sailing and training and probably a better focus on training.

If you butterfly away Nelson somehow, and Aboukir, Nile and Trafalgar and Copenhagen and thus add the Sapnish, French, Dutch and Danish navies together (you need the Swedish one burned for the Danish one to be completely free) you MIGHT stand a chance.
 

Larrikin

Banned
The French must avoid a general engagement unless the odds are extremely in their favor. In the Napoleonic Wars if the French avoid the battle of Aboukir Bay and Trafalgar they could put together a grand coalition of French, Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish and finally Russian navies. All together they could overmatch the RN two to one. That could force the RN to remain close to the home islands while allowing the French some flexibility.

The French were trying to avoid general engagements at Aboukir Bay and Trafalgar.

At Aboukir Bay they were anchored inside what they thought was a safe anchorage, and for that matter, what everybody but Nelson thought was a safe anchorage, and Nelson went in after them over and past shoals to destroy them.

At Trafalgar the combined fleet was trying like mad to avoid the blockading force, they weren't interested in fighting the RN if the RN left them alone.

One of the problems the French had during the Revolutionary/Napoleonic wars was that they had either killed or scared off all the officers from the old royal navy, as those officers were nobility.
 
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