How can you reduce the destruction of North American First Nations?

[writofcertiorari]

All Colonizers are terrible, but if you want to "help" the North American Native Americans, in the sense that more of them survive than their experience with the English/British and Anglo-Americans/Anglo-Canadians then have Spain colonize the entire continent. A lot can be said about the terribleness of the Spanish Empire, but from Mexico to Argentina, most of the peoples are descendant from the locals, you can't say that about Canada or the U.S.

Not totally. I don't think that's true for Argentina, and perhaps not for Chile. I think parts of Brazil, Colombia, and even Bolivia have significant European ancestry in terms of their population. However, Brazil and Colombia also have a large African ancestry component, while Argentina doesn't anymore. For Mexico and Central America, it depends but I would agree most ancestry there is probably at least 40-50% native. You can't just go on looks because plenty of Spanish and Portuguese people tend to (not all, obviously...) have somewhat darker skin than Northern Europeans. That could explain why Canada and the US majority-European population don't really look like they have any Native ancestry at all, while they probably do have some. I'd add that apparently North American natives looked a bit different than those in South America. They probably had somewhat paler skin, I'd guess? I'm not really sure. Another factor is that South America had like 80-90 million natives while North America had maybe 10-15 million.

But yeah, the Spanish definitely were better than Native Americans than the English, French, and even Dutch, Black Legend aside.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

I wasn't referring to their skin tone I was referring to their survival rate.

 

[Richard V]

All Colonizers are terrible, but if you want to "help" the North American Native Americans, in the sense that more of them survive than their experience with the English/British and Anglo-Americans/Anglo-Canadians then have Spain colonize the entire continent. A lot can be said about the terribleness of the Spanish Empire, but from Mexico to Argentina, most of the peoples are descendant from the locals, you can't say that about Canada or the U.S.

California had the highest Amerindian population in US and Canada. It’s unfortunate for the natives that Spain was incredibly unambiguous with it. If they tried to force their way of life on California like they did in Mapuche territory or even the American southwest they could have turned Californian Indians into agriculturalists or at least pastoralists.

During late period of Spanish rule and later under Mexican rule the Catholic missions did enslave the natives and force agriculture on them. It didn’t seem to have a transformative effect, possibly because this period was fairly short and it was too little too late.

 

[manitobot]

The Spanish explorers were mostly men and had no qualms about miscegenation. For the British, they established colonies with the intention of settling and did not want to have Natives for the most part miscegenating or integrating into their society until much later. (If I am wrong about the previous statement let me know, but it is something I have gathered) Additionally, Native Americans did not have the same development in the Northern American East Coast than they did in Mesoamerica. To minimize destruction to an extent let us look to the French, who enjoyed better relations with the Native Americans, they integrated a lot into Native culture and there was a high rate of mutual intermarriage. This is mainly due to their colonialism was bent on fur trading and not settler colonies like the English, or plantations like the Spanish. So all these factors combined, to minimize the destruction,

-Have the Natives have a higher population than OTL
-Have the English or whatever power settling the coast be more interested in mercantile goods that require native cooperation like the fur trade
-Have the English or whatever power settling the coast be open to miscegenation and integration into these said settlements
-Have religious facilities there be one of peace and good-nature rather than the Spanish mindset of forced conversion
-Have an established Metis population present that can ease natives and the settlements in the further process of integration when settler colonies arrive

 

[Umbral]

Its worth noting that the natives had terrible luck with how Europeans discovered the Americas. Colombus hit the Caribbean islands, and had medieval monarchs back home that he'd promised a big return on their investment.

He wrote some incredible lies about how much gold and silver he'd found, and that message went viral in Europe. And then a lot of gold and silver was found! The effects of this was to erase the previous indifference to faraway lands and replace it with a deep-seated feeling that faraway lands meant vast wealth. It triggered enormous interest in Europe -and with the Caribbean as a base and superior sea tech, the Europeans could reach the natives without the natives being able to reach them. Strategically, not good for the natives.

If Colombus does not make it, Europeans will discover the Americas by expanding along the coast of Brazil and down from Newfoundland. In neither case do I believe they will find anything very interesting for a long time, so the initial exploratory period will stretch out much longer.

Meanwhile, the plagues will race ahead of them. Nations will topple and burn without the Europeans being present to take immediate advantage. By the time the Europeans get to mesoamerica and the precious metals, there may be post-apocalyptic successor states in place who have weathered a set of plagues.

I've had some ideas about a TL where its the Hansa who seize the Garnd Banks and North America is mainly colonized down the coast by Hansa factories. A pattern more akin to Phoenician trading colonies.

The effect would be to give the native Americans much more breathing room after contact.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

The issue with US is the natives always had shitty luck of picking wrong side during war(British). Americans did not take to kindly to them raiding them and siding with British more often. If natives for some reason side with US more often they are probably more protected under legal system or less hated.

Not to mention, most of the tribes in Indian territory sided with the Confederacy during the Civil War. There wasn't unanimity, but it had a lot to do with stripping people in that area of their rights and protections previously promised.

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Perhaps have the State of Muscogee join the Union, thus representing interests of some Amerindians in the House and Senate.

The Cherokee and Choctaw have the right to each send a non-voting delegate to the House of Representatives. The Cherokee only exercised that right in 2019 and the Choctaw never have. Perhaps if the treaties allow for them to send voting delegates to the House, they could become influential either via persuading their House Colleagues, shoving amendments into bills for their communities' benefit, or occasionally getting concessions in exchange for votes.

Could other tribes have gotten delegate agreement? If there were 5 or 10 different Amerindian representatives in Congress, it could make them an important swing bloc (assuming they work together).

 

[Wendell]

Not to mention, most of the tribes in Indian territory sided with the Confederacy during the Civil War. There wasn't unanimity, but it had a lot to do with stripping people in that area of their rights and protections previously promised.

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Perhaps have the State of Muscogee join the Union, thus representing interests of some Amerindians in the House and Senate.

The Cherokee and Choctaw have the right to each send a non-voting delegate to the House of Representatives. The Cherokee only exercised that right in 2019 and the Choctaw never have. Perhaps if the treaties allow for them to send voting delegates to the House, they could become influential either via persuading their House Colleagues, shoving amendments into bills for their communities' benefit, or occasionally getting concessions in exchange for votes.

Could other tribes have gotten delegate agreement? If there were 5 or 10 different Amerindian representatives in Congress, it could make them an important swing bloc (assuming they work together).

I don't know what you do do, but I don't think admitting to the Union the State of Muscogee is going to do it.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

I don't know what you do do, but I don't think admitting to the Union the State of Muscogee is going to do it.

My general point is, if there are enough Amerindian members of Congress the government may be forced to behave better.

 

[Wendell]

My general point is, if there are enough Amerindian members of Congress the government may be forced to behave better.

Conversely, would trying to mainstream the indigenous populations from the outset have paradoxically left them in better shape?

 

[Blorg]

I've had some ideas about a TL where its the Hansa who seize the Garnd Banks and North America is mainly colonized down the coast by Hansa factories. A pattern more akin to Phoenician trading colonies.

Now this is an idea.

 

[Canaan Osborne]

A disease transfers f rye on llamas to humans in the 1100's and steadily spreads through the Americas. A Bird flu also spreads from turkeys to humans in the 900's and steadily spreads across the Americas. The population drop and subsequent depression from endemic disease leads to the Mississippians getting several generations of breathing space before their collapse. During this time they breed a mutant high protein bean that dogs can partially subsist on. They breed muscular working dogs for packing stuff that get spread around when they finally collapse until they reach Mesoamerica where Chia seeds, turkey, and the "dog bean" allow a higher work dog population until someone fixes small carts as well as packs to dogs and man. Copper working is endemic in Mesoamerica by the time the Spanish arrive thanks to somewhat more draft power (dogs are the best draft animals pound-for-pound). A more contagious variant of rabies spreads from dogs to man. The Europeans reach the Americans and get 4 contagious diseases. Llama lung, Turkey flu, syphilis, and the biting death.

 

[Driftless]

You probably need some way of blunting the disease-shock. When you are sitting on desirable land and lose 90+ % of your population upon contact, your situation afterwards is bound to be poor. Bit of a tech boost wouldn't do any ham, either.

Norse blending into the native populations and transferring horses, stirrups and ship tech, with the occasional contact (selling narwhale tusks and cod) with Europe, bringing diseases back with them might do it.

The impact of disease and its timing are critical, so having the Vindlanders kick off the cycle 400-500 years earlier may help - in the long run.

After that, some technology exchange would be a big help: improved metallurgy, expanded animal domestication, increased use of the wheel, improved deepwater shipbuilding.

 

[Canaan Osborne]

A disease transfers f rye on llamas to humans in the 1100's and steadily spreads through the Americas. A Bird flu also spreads from turkeys to humans in the 900's and steadily spreads across the Americas. The population drop and subsequent depression from endemic disease leads to the Mississippians getting several generations of breathing space before their collapse. During this time they breed a mutant high protein bean that dogs can partially subsist on. They breed muscular working dogs for packing stuff that get spread around when they finally collapse until they reach Mesoamerica where Chia seeds, turkey, and the "dog bean" allow a higher work dog population until someone fixes small carts as well as packs to dogs and man. Copper working is endemic in Mesoamerica by the time the Spanish arrive thanks to somewhat more draft power (dogs are the best draft animals pound-for-pound). A more contagious variant of rabies spreads from dogs to man. The Europeans reach the Americans and get 4 contagious diseases. Llama lung, Turkey flu, syphilis, and the biting death.

Maybe a extra STD from somewhat higher population in Mesoamerica and the Mississippi do to copper (possibly bronze) tools and somewhat better labor economy and more trade. So let's say Llama lung (red cough to Europeans), Turkey flu (American flu to Europeans), syphilis (The Spanish disease to Europeans), and somewhat more contagious rabies (The Biting Death) combined lead to about 20% to 35% death rates in Europe combined and suppressed population growth as time goes on do to recurrent epidemics and some new endemic diseases. Lower death rates in the Americas do to more robust immune systems among Natives. Let's say...70% to 80% death rates instead of 90% death rates. Less Europeans bouncing around causing trouble and less European overpopulation to drive settlement. And more Native Americans meaning a speedier recovery. The Spanish still use their immense technological superiority to Conquistador the Mesoamericans and maybe the Andeans and maybe the Mississippians if they survive or bounce back as a urban civilization before the Euros arrive and thus making them a attractive looting opportunity.

 

[VANRIDERFAN]

There are ideas that if the "Filles du roi" never happened that the French adventurers of Quebec would have completely assimilated into the local tribes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King's_Daughters

The Red River Valley Metis were also a successful assimilation between the French (and some Scot) and Cree fur traders. That Canada (represented by Orangemen from Ontario) treated them so horribly after the HBC sold Ruperts Land is a blight on our nation.

 

[writofcertiorari]

I wasn't referring to their skin tone I was referring to their survival rate.

Right, but my point was that their survival rate in Latin America wasn't very high throughout. I mostly agree with your post, though.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

Right, but my point was that their survival rate in Latin America wasn't very high throughout. I mostly agree with your post, though.

Certainly higher than in NA.

 

[Condottiero]

south American native peoples experienced mass genocide, but they seem to have faired better than North American indigenous nations. How can you make North American political identities be more of a forced union between Europeans and indigenous peoples. Basically, how do you create an English version of the mestizo identity?

Probably because south American natives did not experience mass genocide.

 

[Madeleine Birchfield]

south American native peoples experienced mass genocide, but they seem to have faired better than North American indigenous nations. How can you make North American political identities be more of a forced union between Europeans and indigenous peoples. Basically, how do you create an English version of the mestizo identity?

Have North America be dominated by the French instead of the English, as the French cared more about religion than race and readily intermarried with the local tribes.

 

[Pugzley]

Have a policy of isolation from the colonists. Do not help them in regards to showing what crops to plant, burn their farms and ships, use local knowledge of terrain to hide from them and make life uncomfortable for them. Do not accept any gifts from and a couple of harsh winters would finish the colonists off. Rinse and repeat for any repeated colonisation attempts and the European powers that be may think that their colonists might have fallen off the edge of the earth.

 

[Cool-Eh]

Have one of the Portuguese explorers who tried to reach the americas before Columbus make it there, inevitably spread disease, but get lost at see trying to return to Europe. the earlier European diseases are introduced to the americas the sooner the mass die off happens and the more time people have to recover their numbers before interacting with actually European colonizers, not just their germs.