How can the Allies win WWII without the Soviets or US?

Since pre-Fall of France has been covered extensively, I will base my response assuming that in this scenario France still falls.

The UK keeps fighting long enough for either Tube Alloys (which was far ahead of the German nuclear program) or Vegetarian (particularly the later planned "Anthrax bombs") to come online. Of note, even if the US is neutral, the Allies can still buy material from the US and pay to use American production lines, whereas the Axis cannot due to the Royal Navy blockade. If the war progresses into the mid-late 1940s Britain will have the weapons to pretty much annihilate Germany (and much of occupied Europe) whereas Germany will not have the corresponding capability (although their gas stocks could do a lot of damage, particularly if they manage to get a working nerve gas dispersal system mounted to a V1 or V2 rocket). Obviously whether it would actually be politically or even militarily feasible for the UK to actually deploy and use its WMDs against Germany is far from certain. From the early 1940s on the UK was also producing more fighters and heavy bombers then Germany, which suggests that even without the aid of American industry, the conflict in the air would still swing in favour of the UK eventually (remember the UK also has the Dominions, particularly Canada, pumping out large numbers of planes and training tons of pilots- see the Commonwealth Air Training Plan), at least until Germany can co-op a large enough portion of the aviation industry of the Occupied countries to compensate.

Also as clarification, what is the relationship between the Soviets and Germany in this TL? In OTL neither Hitler or Stalin particularly trusted each other (Stalin was essentially playing for time to rebuild the Red Army with the von Ribbentrop pact) and even if Hitler didn't attack the USSR if the political climate between Germany and Russia is the same as in OTL Hitler would still be required to put most of his forces in the East to guard against the Soviets, which means he cant really shift much more war production than he did in OTL to thinks like U-boats which would actually help him force the UK to the peace table, and as we saw in OTL during the Battle of Britain, the German 2 engine bombers and dive bombers, while excellent for tactical bombing really cannot be used to hammer a country into submission from the air, and Germany really has no hope of conquering Britain without total air dominance because the British Home Fleet would quickly crush any attempted invasion (See the 1974 Sandhurst War Games). Which makes me think that the most likely result in the short to mid term of this AH would be a stalemate between the UK and Germany, since the UK simply doesn't have the manpower to directly confront Germany in Europe without the aid of either the Americans or the Soviets. What happens in the longer term (mid-late 1940s) in this scenario is what would be more interesting, but my opinion is that if the UK were able to get at least limited air dominance over the continent and they were willing to use their WMDs to the hilt, then I think they would emerge victorious (or at least less utterly devastated)

PS: Of course if the political realities between the USSR and Germany are completely different then in OTL (something along a friendly neutrality, although this seems to be pretty ASB given Hitler's stance on the Slavs) and Germany doesn't have to fear a Russian attack and are thus able to shift all their industrial production to the purpose of knocking out the UK (probably through winning the Battle of the Atlantic and starving Britain into submission rather than invading it), then I think an allied victory post Fall of France is pretty impossible.
 
I really don't care: but I am interested if someone can find a POD after France falls.

This does not quite meet that requirement, but the fall of France still happens.

PoD: The British-French-exiled-Polish codebreaking effort re-breaks Enigma a couple of weeks earlier in 1940. This is just in time for decrypts to provide definite warning of the German invasion of Norway. The Allies and Norway defeat the invasion.

But Hitler presses ahead with the attack on France, which still succeeds, with about the same result.

However, as things settle out, Mussolini decides against getting into the war; Italy remains neutral.

The war continues; the RAF wins the Battle of Britain. With Italy neutral, and the Kriegsmarine all but annihilated in Norway, Britain does not do the Mers-el-Kebir operation.

The Blitz is worse than OTL, but British defenses grind down the Luftwaffe, while Bomber Command retaliates. With no operations in the Med or Africa, British airpower is concentrated at home.

In March 1941, Britain and Free France gain control of French West Africa (i.e. Dakar).

Britain is "bloodied but unbowed", Italy is neutral, the U-boats aren't doing well (they have to run a long gauntlet past Norway, French ships are escorting, Dakar is a base, and the Med is an Allied lake). Hitler decides against launching BARBAROSSA.

The war is clearly stalemated.

The air war continues, and Germans feel the bite. Goering is openly mocked for his promise that no enemy bombers would ever strike the Fatherland.

A conspiracy arises in French North Africa. Under Vichy, FNA is blockaded and economically depressed. The conspirators figure that by switching FNA to the Allies, they can make a lot more money, and gain important political power as the exile government of France. (Such a plot did arise OTL, before TORCH. ATL, with no threat from Italy, no Mers-el-Kebir incident, and Britain doing better generally, it arises sooner.) In October 1941, there is a coup in FNA; the pro-Allied group seizes control. Then the Allies get control of Corsica as the Germans occupy southern France. All the remaining French colonies join the Allies.

It's 1942, and Germany is stuck. Britain is not giving in, and Germany is getting the worst of the air war. Britain is becoming an armed camp with immense numbers of troops from the Commonwealth and Empire, and the French colonies. Meanwhile, the USSR has cut off credit to Germany, and Soviet troops are massing along the border while most of the German army is mannng the Atlantic Wall. The Schwarze Kapelle gains many supporters. It's clear that most Germans have lost faith in Hitler, and just want the war over ASAP.

In June 1942, the SK overthrows Hitler and the Nazis. The SK proposes peace to the Allies with status quo ante except for Danzig, to be settled by a plebescite.

The war ends. Did the Allies "win"? Hitler lost.
 
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I really don't see how the UK can survive without the USSR and USA getting involved. Barbarossa diverted a massive amount of men, equipment and supplies; if there's no war on the USSR, then all of these will keept being aimed at the UK. Rommel, for example, will get all the supplies and men he needs, and the Luftwaffe can pound Malta with a lot more power. And, even assuming Lend Lease exists for the UK, sooner or latter it will be gounded down by sheer numbers, atriction and the U-boat war, against which it will now be forced to fight alone...
 
Of course,the French and the UK are the big f-----g powers for the Allies,but the war would taker longer without US and USSR.But they could win,but alternate history is the history we'll never see.
 

BooNZ

Banned
The UK was broke by the end of 1940, without LL they are sunk. The little engine that could stories are fascinating all the same...
 
Said union slowly overwhelms Germany by sheer weight (2 million Indian volunteers went unused OTL).


2 million Indians fighting for Britain, hmmm maybe they just declare Britain part of the Indian Empire. :p

Britain just does not have the resources to fight Germany alone.
Look at the trouble they had just taking Caen in Normandy and that's with America in the war and the Soviets having destroyed about 1/3 of the German forces raised by mid 44 and engaging about a half of what survived. Plus the allies had air superiority on a scale that the Germans could only dream of.
The issue of France fighting on is an interesting idea but in reality it would not have gone far without America joining the war.
Again look at the scale of forces that the allies had to put into the field too defeat the germans.
 
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