How Can Sweden and Prussia Form a Dynastic Union?

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Was there any chance in Sweden and Prussia's histories when they could have formed a potential dynastic union? I'm trying to come up with either a Swedish Vasa ruled Sweden-Prussia, or a Hohenzollern Sweden-Prussia, and I'm not sure which one of those would be plausible. The Swedes may have to bargain hard with the Prussians in entering such a union, but overall, would the dynastic union allow Prussia to develop a rather, different kind of Germanic identity that is similar and different to the German identities of Switzerland, Austria and Germany proper?
 

imperialaquila

I'm relatively certain there was a Swedish princess married to the Prussian elector around 1700ish, but I'm blanking on the details. Maybe instead of the throne of Sweden passing to (whoever succeeded Karl XII), it passes to her instead, and through her Frederick William?

EDIT: That's wrong, it was a daughter of Frederick William I who married the King of Sweden in 1744. Maybe you can do something with that? Kill off Frederick the Great and all his brothers, and I think the throne would then pass to Luisa Ulrika.
 
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MarshalBraginsky

Banned
I forgot, the union could be established within the time period from say, 1648 until maybe, 1730. Enough time to either: prevent Frederick the Great from being born to having Sweden ruled by a Hohenzollern or a surviving Vasa dynasty that also acquires Prussia.
 

Westphalian

The most obvious possibility would be a marriage of the Swedish princess Kristina and the Markgraf of Brandenburg, Friedrich Wilhelm, about 1642, when she is 16 and he 22. I wrote "princess" because IMO a Lützen-suriving and longer-living Gustaf II Adolf would be the only factor to make this dynastic union happen - IIRC, he favored it even IOTL.
That would solve the Pomeranian question and create a Northern German and Baltic powerhouse, with Sweden-Finland and Ingria-Estonia-Livonia in the north and Brandenburg-Prussia in the south, plus at least Pomerania, Magdeburg-Halberstadt, Minden-Ravendberg, Kleve-Mark and Bremen-Verden. "At least", because I guess a surviving GA might mean even more gains at the end of the alt-30YW - like possibly Jülich-Berg and/or Hildesheim.

Of course, FW having to govern with the Swedish Estates in Sweden and rather proud and strong local estates in the German parts will be quite interesting.
 

imperialaquila

As another option to the one I posted before, you could marry either Ulrika Eleonora or Hedvig Sophia to Frederick William I. Assuming that Charles XII dies without issue, then you would have the throne pass to Frederick William through his wife, thus uniting the two houses.

I'm not sure how this union would go forward, given the circumstances surrounding the Great Northern War and Charles' death. Having already beaten down Sweden and broken their empire, I do not think the allies arrayed against Sweden would be too keen on allowing it to unite with Brandenburg-Prussia. You would have to butterfly away the Great Northern War, and then still have Charles die without issue. If Charles dies without issue sometime in his youth, then there would no doubt be a War of the Swedish Succession, to replace the Great Northern War.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Westphalian said:
The most obvious possibility would be a marriage of the Swedish princess Kristina and the Markgraf of Brandenburg, Friedrich Wilhelm, about 1642, when she is 16 and he 22. I wrote "princess" because IMO a Lützen-suriving and longer-living Gustaf II Adolf would be the only factor to make this dynastic union happen - IIRC, he favored it even IOTL.
That would solve the Pomeranian question and create a Northern German and Baltic powerhouse, with Sweden-Finland and Ingria-Estonia-Livonia in the north and Brandenburg-Prussia in the south, plus at least Pomerania, Magdeburg-Halberstadt, Minden-Ravendberg, Kleve-Mark and Bremen-Verden. "At least", because I guess a surviving GA might mean even more gains at the end of the alt-30YW - like possibly Jülich-Berg and/or Hildesheim.

Of course, FW having to govern with the Swedish Estates in Sweden and rather proud and strong local estates in the German parts will be quite interesting.
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So a Swedish-Prussian powerhouse in Central Europe could unlease a new set of butterflies. Although in this case, is there also a precedent for Poland-Lithuania to look east for allies in the face of a stronger Sweden backed by Prussia? There's also the Holy Roman Empire, which would face a new rival in Sweden-Prussia. Which might also push them into a coalition with say, the PLC and Denmark since those states detest Sweden. Not sure about Muscovy, but even they are not going to take this lying down. Perhaps Muscovy could trade Karelia for something else to keep Sweden-Prussia satisfied.

Socio-politically speaking, you can expect the Swedes and Prussians to have some sort of a cross-Baltic cultural exchange that may end up in the Prussian identity similar to the Nordics.
 

Westphalian

Another possibility would be a marriage of Ulrika Eleonora, princess of Sweden, and daughter of King Karl XI. (and sister of King Karl XII.). Wiki: " In 1700, there were negotiations about a marriage to [Friedrich Wilhelm I.] of Prussia, but nothing came of them."

I do not know why the negotiations fell through, but if the are successful In TTL, FW will become King of Sweden any time after the marriage, as soon as the unmarried Karl XII. dies. IOTL that was in 1718, but here it could be rather earlier due to butterflies. In 1713, when FW became King in Prussia, his country was rather weak - the army was far off in the Spanish War of Succession and the Swedish army almost beaten. So Karl XII dying in early 1713 during the kalabalik would be a fine secondary PoD.

[Edit: Needed too long too write this, obviously.]
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
By this time, the Swedish Empire was already on a decline, but Frederick Wilhelm as King of Sweden after Karl XII's death can pretty much salvage the Swedish state as a consolation prize. Alternatively, if Karl XII could die in the time period between 1700 and 1710, then Sweden could also have a chance of winning the Great Northern War.

Going back to these potential choices:

1) Marriage between Kristina of Sweden to Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia in 1642.

2) Marriage between Ulrika Eleonora or Hdvig Sophia to Frederick Wilhelm I of Prussia in 1710 to 1713.

What are the pros and cons of either one of those choices?
 

imperialaquila

The earlier one gives Sweden an extra source of manpower at the height of its imperial ambitions. Sweden would probably be more successful in the wars of the latter half of the 17th century, with one of its potential opponents in Brandenburg instead joined to it. Perhaps Sweden manages to hold on to Poland during the Deluge ITTL?
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
imperialaquila said:
The earlier one gives Sweden an extra source of manpower at the height of its imperial ambitions. Sweden would probably be more successful in the wars of the latter half of the 17th century, with one of its potential opponents in Brandenburg instead joined to it. Perhaps Sweden manages to hold on to Poland during the Deluge ITTL?
Click to expand...

How about cutting off Poland from the Baltic? That would be way better than annexing all of Poland since the Swedes would be hardpressed elsewhere. On the other hand, if the Swedes do try to keep Poland down, what would happen to say, Lithuania?

A Swedish-Prussian "Union" (since I don't know what to call it, other than Riksposplita but that would be a ripoff from Rzeczpospolita) could also end up beating Russia in an alt-Great Northern War (or an analogue), potentially foiling its chances of gaining access into the West.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

MarshalBraginsky said:
How about cutting off Poland from the Baltic? That would be way better than annexing all of Poland since the Swedes would be hardpressed elsewhere. On the other hand, if the Swedes do try to keep Poland down, what would happen to say, Lithuania?

A Swedish-Prussian "Union" (since I don't know what to call it, other than Riksposplita but that would be a ripoff from Rzeczpospolita) could also end up beating Russia in an alt-Great Northern War (or an analogue), potentially foiling its chances of gaining access into the West.
Click to expand...

Why not partition Poland proper with Austria earlier as well, giving Austria all of Lesser Poland.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
kasumigenx said:
Why not partition Poland proper with Austria earlier as well, giving Austria all of Lesser Poland.
Click to expand...

Not a bad idea, although I don't know what it would look like on the map. If Sweden and Prussia can control the Baltic, then it would look like most of Europe are going to look at them as the role model instead of Poland-Lithuania.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

MarshalBraginsky said:
Not a bad idea, although I don't know what it would look like on the map. If Sweden and Prussia can control the Baltic, then it would look like most of Europe are going to look at them as the role model instead of Poland-Lithuania.
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I think Austria will likely integrate Lesser Poland to Bohemia because Lesser Poland used to be a part of Bohemia which was conquered by Mieszko I.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Would the Swedish-Prussian "Union" also be able to permanently prevent Russia from even reaching the Baltic though? That would have some interesting results for the Tsar if he can't defeat the SPU. Just who will ally with Sweden-Prussia? We already know Russia, Poland-Lithuania, Denmark and maybe Austria would become Sweden-Prussia's enemies but what about France, Great Britain, Spain, Ottoman Turkey and Portugal?
 

AuroraBorealis

Westphalian said:
Another possibility would be a marriage of Ulrika Eleonora, princess of Sweden, and daughter of King Karl XI. (and sister of King Karl XII.). Wiki: " In 1700, there were negotiations about a marriage to [Friedrich Wilhelm I.] of Prussia, but nothing came of them."

I do not know why the negotiations fell through, but if the are successful In TTL, FW will become King of Sweden any time after the marriage, as soon as the unmarried Karl XII. dies. IOTL that was in 1718, but here it could be rather earlier due to butterflies. In 1713, when FW became King in Prussia, his country was rather weak - the army was far off in the Spanish War of Succession and the Swedish army almost beaten. So Karl XII dying in early 1713 during the kalabalik would be a fine secondary PoD.

[Edit: Needed too long too write this, obviously.]
Click to expand...
No he wouldn't. Unless she married him after the Riksdag had made here Queen. Hedvig's line is senior and it would fall to her son instead. U.E. only became queen because she was an unmarried princess, at Karl XII's death. The Riksdag is going to have a lot of say in who she marries. Hesse-Kassel didn't have a lot of baggage as B-P did participate towards the end in the Northern War as an opponent. but Frederick also was not in line to inherit the Land-graviate directly. Something that also plays in his favour. the Swedish estates will want their independence as much as they can achieve.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
So realistically Sweden and Prussia's dynastic union may have to occur in 1642, when Kristina of Sweden and Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia marry.
 
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