How can Germany defeat Britain in WW1?

Perkeo

Banned
Nobody is proposing a war to the knife here, what this thread is about is making Britain clearly and unequivocally lose and make major concessions to the CP.

And I propose something different: Status quo ante bellum with Britain and the CP force major concessions from other Entente powers. Maybe we even have to assume status quo ante in all of the western front. Since this means that France fails to win back A-L and Brest-Litowsk remains in force.

That means being able to really hurt the UK, which means threatening important interests, Suez is about the easiest one to threaten, with Malta and Cyprus being less vital, but easier to threaten. A more exhausted Britain is more likely to go to terms, rather than try to fight it out in the Eastern Med with light units for awhile, and try to wait out CP internal problems

Britain is far superior in the colonial theatre and has a convenient Channel to protect herself from the continent. I just cannot see how to force major concessions from Britain.
 
Delay or prevent US entry into the conflict. From what I understand, at the time the US joined the war several British officials and American observers thought Britain had only a few weeks or months left of food before a serious crunch started in. We also all know about the credit crisis that was already occurring at the same time as well. What Germany can not achieve by force it can be done through diplomacy with the Brits out of money and out of food (Thus, unable to continue the war).
 
I've come to the conclusion that Germany does has the material resources to defeat Britain, in particular IOTL the Navy and the position in Flanders was underutilised.

The biggest problem was the German command structure at the highest level. The OHL wasn't too bad, but it had little to no links with the Naval command structure and the naval structure was an absolute mess.

I believe that a navy command shake up, even a partial one, and incorporation into OHLs planning would do wonders for Germany against Britain.
 
There is an argument that in September 1914, instead of turning left and pursuing the French 5th Army and BEF in a chase that Moltke had to know was unlikely to pay off, if Moltke instead had 1st and 2nd army go right and initiate the "race to the sea", he could have captured Amiens and anchored the front line down the Somme valley into the Channel. Now, with Pas de Calais in German hands, the Dover narrows could have been loaded up with coastal artillery and minefields on the German side so that under its guns the German fleet would have a safe passage into the Channel and a bastion where the High Seas Fleet could fight the Grand Fleet if it offered battle, and defeat it.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
@Glenn239 Hmm, 1st Army had OTL almost reached Amiens befor turning south.

Assuming von Kluck did as ... planned, proceeding further wetswards into the direction of beuvais and further rouen, his right flank goung for Abbeville and Dieppe ...
Wouldn't that leave a damn wide gap between his and the 2nd Army ? Almost an invitation for the BEF and 5th french Army ?

The/A story of such a gap : Rawna Ruska in Galicia
 
@Glenn239 Hmm, 1st Army had OTL almost reached Amiens befor turning south.

Assuming von Kluck did as ... planned, proceeding further wetswards into the direction of beuvais and further rouen, his right flank goung for Abbeville and Dieppe ...
Wouldn't that leave a damn wide gap between his and the 2nd Army ? Almost an invitation for the BEF and 5th french Army ?

The/A story of such a gap : Rawna Ruska in Galicia

Depends who wakes up to the situation first.

Does the BEF spot the gap in the German line before von Kluck becomes aware that he is on the flank of the BEF (instead of approaching it head-on) and in a position to roll it up - possibly driving it across V Army's line of retreat.
 
The idea is that if Moltke concludes the pursuit southwest of Paris as a chimera and aims to anchor his right on the Somme valley, he can probably win the race to the sea before it even happens without any serious gaps appearing in his lines, (the 5th and BEF could be in all-out run-way mode for several days before they realise they are not being pursued). But the German navy was so disorganized in terms of strategy I wouldn't be surprised if it never bothered/realised to spell out to Moltke how important Amiens and the Channel ports would be in the long term. The pre-war failure to identify the importance of Amiens in an Anglo-French coalition war was a serious oversight by the Germans, and just at that one moment in September 1914, it was there for the taking.
 
The idea is that if Moltke concludes the pursuit southwest of Paris as a chimera and aims to anchor his right on the Somme valley, he can probably win the race to the sea before it even happens without any serious gaps appearing in his lines, (the 5th and BEF could be in all-out run-way mode for several days before they realise they are not being pursued). But the German navy was so disorganized in terms of strategy I wouldn't be surprised if it never bothered/realised to spell out to Moltke how important Amiens and the Channel ports would be in the long term. The pre-war failure to identify the importance of Amiens in an Anglo-French coalition war was a serious oversight by the Germans, and just at that one moment in September 1914, it was there for the taking.


But at least in 1914 they had some excuse.

They were still thinking "short war" so didn't see a need to consider the long term.
 
And I propose something different: Status quo ante bellum with Britain and the CP force major concessions from other Entente powers. Maybe we even have to assume status quo ante in all of the western front. Since this means that France fails to win back A-L and Brest-Litowsk remains in force.

Britain is far superior in the colonial theatre and has a convenient Channel to protect herself from the continent. I just cannot see how to force major concessions from Britain.
But that is not the question the OP is asking, OP is asking how to force concessions against Britain

Britain is superior in the colonial theater in general yes, but absent France, Russia and the US, it is inferior in the Mediterranean against Italy, Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans put together as long as the High Seas Fleet is tying down the vast majority of the Grand Fleet (24 modern HSF cap ships means Britain wants at least 32 at Home, having 42 total leaving 10 to face 11 in the Med, add a few extra losses and desire to have a better edge over the HSF and those 10 evaporate quick) and that means the Suez, the lifeline of Empire is in danger. The Suez in and of itself is worth worth a hell of a lot of concessions to remain under UK control
 
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ben0628

Banned
The technology was available to build a Chunnel. I know it sounds crazy, but hey, ww1 was crazy

Build a Chunnel with multiple exits on the British side, and launch attacks on what I'd assume to be highly fortified British positions (Itd cause a lot of casualties but this is WW1).

It took 7 years otl to build the Chunnel. With German efficiency and an authoritarian management style combined with tens of thousands of Belgian slaves, I could see it getting done in 2-3 years
 

NoMommsen

Donor
The technology was available to build a Chunnel. I know it sounds crazy, but hey, ww1 was crazy

Build a Chunnel with multiple exits on the British side, and launch attacks on what I'd assume to be highly fortified British positions (Itd cause a lot of casualties but this is WW1).

It took 7 years otl to build the Chunnel. With German efficiency and an authoritarian management style combined with tens of thousands of Belgian slaves, I could see it getting done in 2-3 years
Damn, you didn:t find the "irony"-button, right ?
 

Perkeo

Banned
But that is not the question the OP is asking, OP is asking how to force concessions against Britain

Britain is superior in the colonial theater in general yes, but absent France, Russia and the US, it is inferior in the Mediterranean against Italy, Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans put together as long as the High Seas Fleet is tying down the vast majority of the Grand Fleet (24 modern HSF cap ships means Britain wants at least 32 at Home, having 42 total leaving 10 to face 11 in the Med, add a few extra losses and desire to have a better edge over the HSF and those 10 evaporate quick) and that means the Suez, the lifeline of Empire is in danger. The Suez in and of itself is worth worth a hell of a lot of concessions to remain under UK control

But that is not the question the OP is asking either, since it sais that Germany forces big concessions from Britain, not Italy, Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans. And why should Germany's allies give up something that suits themselves for something that only suits Germany?

So my answer to the OP's question essentially remains no and loosing . Maybe the Gemans end up with military bases in the Channel as proposed in the hilarious Septemberprogramm, but UMO that is pushing the boundaries of realism very far.

BTW: Defeating Britain never really was a German war goal anyhow. They wanted the British to stay out of continental matters.
 
But that is not the question the OP is asking either, since it sais that Germany forces big concessions from Britain, not Italy, Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans. And why should Germany's allies give up something that suits themselves for something that only suits Germany?

So my answer to the OP's question essentially remains no and loosing . Maybe the Gemans end up with military bases in the Channel as proposed in the hilarious Septemberprogramm, but UMO that is pushing the boundaries of realism very far.

BTW: Defeating Britain never really was a German war goal anyhow. They wanted the British to stay out of continental matters.
Germany is the big cheese RE the Central Powers, and the HSF is an integral part of this, as would be German support to the Ottomans and A-H. At whatever treaty negotiations are going on to settle this Germany will have some ability to reign in the other CP if properly motivated to do so by the UK

Defeating Britain was never a wargoal true, but if the British are being stubborn, and fighting on after everyone else has left, defeating them would become one

I don't think things would get to this point, Britain is likely to cave far before this
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I've come to the conclusion that Germany does has the material resources to defeat Britain, in particular IOTL the Navy and the position in Flanders was underutilised.

The biggest problem was the German command structure at the highest level. The OHL wasn't too bad, but it had little to no links with the Naval command structure and the naval structure was an absolute mess.

I believe that a navy command shake up, even a partial one, and incorporation into OHLs planning would do wonders for Germany against Britain.

I think an integrated war plan does wonders for the German war effort. I also think it is a hard POD to get going due to internal German politics. And there are issues countering the Royal Navy. The Royal Navy had a series of plans, all of which involved aggressive attacks on the German coast line. The German war plans were designed to defeat these, and they would have likely worked. The issue was the British Army had war plans separate from the Royal Navy, and OTL WW1 is the execution of the Army's, not Royal Navy's plans. So the German flaws are not unique, we just focus on the German flaws because they lost.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
But that is not the question the OP is asking either, since it sais that Germany forces big concessions from Britain, not Italy, Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans. And why should Germany's allies give up something that suits themselves for something that only suits Germany?

So my answer to the OP's question essentially remains no and loosing . Maybe the Gemans end up with military bases in the Channel as proposed in the hilarious Septemberprogramm, but UMO that is pushing the boundaries of realism very far.

BTW: Defeating Britain never really was a German war goal anyhow. They wanted the British to stay out of continental matters.

Channel military bases are not unrealistic. Lets roll forward to the negotiated peace. The Germans hold the channel coast. The UK lacks a strong enough army to expel them. The British hold the colonies, and the German Navy is too weak to take them back. If one side is too stubborn in the negotiation, then we basically get a situation where the cease fire lines are the new border, much like OTL North Korea. So it is easy to get military bases on the channel.

If you are talking about conquering the bases initially, there are at least two easy ways. One is the Germans do better in the race to the sea. Small things like the Belgians not wrecking 40 trains in a critical tunnel greatly speed up the Germans. Or a Belgian fortress falling a few days earlier. The second chance is later in the war. Avoid the USA entering the war, and if we have attacks like the 1918 offensive, they can easily gain part of the channel coastline.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
From what I'm reading the German Admirals were extremely cautious with their surface fleet, all the way down to destroyers and torpedo boats, verging on defeatist. They were somewhat gung ho about unleashing uboats but wouldn't give the MKF any destroyers until early 1916 and didn't give the MKF a lot of destroyers until mid/late 1916, 2 years after the coast was captured and 1 1/2 years after the coastal guns made it safe.

That needs to change, if the HSF isn't going to sea regularly then destroyers and even a cruiser need to be sent to MKF to get some use.

Everyone was very careful with their fleet. Capital ships of most powers mostly sat in port. It was very rare to see a British squadron within 75 miles of the German coastline. Based on the German ship building plans and other factors, it is pretty clear that many German Admirals expected the army to win the war, and acted accordingly. And they might have been correct if the German Army won the war. At some point, the Royal Navy might well try to force a decisive naval engagement near the German coastline. The battle the Germans waited the entire war for.
 
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