How Big Can Airplanes Get?

We've had plenty of threads and TLs about super-fast fighters and bombers. I'm working on something that involves a different aspect of airplanes: their size. My question for you is, given economic incentives to make bigger airplanes, just how big can they plausibly get?

Here's what I have in mind. The TL includes a successful Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion program, with the first military combat aircraft (a bomber) flying in the early 60s, and the first non-combat aircraft flying in the 70s. For reasons not worth getting into right now, the public is okay with this, and oil price spikes and mass produced reactors mean that atomic propulsion is economically competitive with conventional propulsion by the mid to late 70s for large aircraft over long-haul routes. (I'm still not 100% sure that I can make the economics work out, but I think I can, and let's just assume it does for the moment.)

Now, one of the interesting properties of atomic propulsion is that efficiency increases markedly as aircraft size increases. The T/W of an atomic engine is dominated by the shield, which is very roughly proportional to the surface area of the reactor, so a bigger plane means less of the plane is engine. In fact, there's a breakeven point somewhere between one and four million pounds gross weight, depending on assumptions, where the T/W of an atomic engine for a large airplane on a long-range mission is better than that of a conventional engine, if you count the fuel as part of the engine.

So this creates a strong incentive for airplanes to get BIG. NASA did a few paper studies that went up to 20,000,000 lbs. gross weight, and which had enough cargo capacity to airdrop a Saturn-V. Also, I should mention that this TL features a technocratic political movement who just LOVE enormous public works programs, like super-sizing airports to Meet the Challenge of Tomorrow (TM). In many cases local concerns may prevent them from expanding as much as they want, but quite a bit of funding would be available for states or municipalities to build longer and wider airstrips.

So, how big can planes get? Can they actually reach 20,000,000 lbs.? Even bigger?
 
Size isn't everything - any aircraft can be built as long as thrust-to-weight ratio is still in thrusts favour, and the aircraft's design does not violate the square-cube law - if it does, you have merely designed the world's widest truck.

However, It is highly unlikely that any future aircraft will be larger (except perhaps a slightly elongated version of the A380: the present version is the A380-800; a stretched -900 version is on the drawing board but its production has been postponed

A larger A380 would have been a blended wing/fuselage a/c, or a flying wing, I think...:confused:

The question remains with anything bigger than a A380-800 - where does it take off from, and where does it land? Airports have had to be significantly upgraded to handle the increased size of the A380: multi-jetway bridges and increased baggage handling, to name just a few. To build an aircraft larger than the A380 would be profoundly cost prohibitive to the airports, and it is doubtful that most runways could handle more than the 1.2 million pound max takeoff weight of an A380 without serious reinforcement, and its fuel consumption may be cost-prohibitive to the airlines.
 
Size isn't everything - any aircraft can be built as long as thrust-to-weight ratio is still in thrusts favour, and the aircraft's design does not violate the square-cube law - if it does, you have merely designed the world's widest truck.

However, It is highly unlikely that any future aircraft will be larger (except perhaps a slightly elongated version of the A380: the present version is the A380-800; a stretched -900 version is on the drawing board but its production has been postponed

A larger A380 would have been a blended wing/fuselage a/c, or a flying wing, I think...:confused:

The question remains with anything bigger than a A380-800 - where does it take off from, and where does it land? Airports have had to be significantly upgraded to handle the increased size of the A380: multi-jetway bridges and increased baggage handling, to name just a few. To build an aircraft larger than the A380 would be profoundly cost prohibitive to the airports, and it is doubtful that most runways could handle more than the 1.2 million pound max takeoff weight of an A380 without serious reinforcement, and its fuel consumption may be cost-prohibitive to the airlines.

I'd say that's a fair assesment. If you're trying to build an aircraft that hold more than say a 800 to 1000 people, you're probably better off to build a zepplin.
 
The question remains with anything bigger than a A380-800 - where does it take off from, and where does it land? Airports have had to be significantly upgraded to handle the increased size of the A380: multi-jetway bridges and increased baggage handling, to name just a few. To build an aircraft larger than the A380 would be profoundly cost prohibitive to the airports, and it is doubtful that most runways could handle more than the 1.2 million pound max takeoff weight of an A380 without serious reinforcement, and its fuel consumption may be cost-prohibitive to the airlines.

Give it a different wing design and you not only make the thing more rule efficient, it takes far less runway to takeoff and land.
 
What about "Sky bases"? Nuclear powered aircraft that are never meant to land? It should be possible, but you'd need someone as batshit as Hitler to try it.
 
What about "Sky bases"? Nuclear powered aircraft that are never meant to land? It should be possible, but you'd need someone as batshit as Hitler to try it.

Well, they have to land periodically to refuel and be maintained. If nothing else, you only get a month or two out of your average fuel loading. But I am considering the possibility of using atomic-powered aircraft for things like basing ALBMs or ABMs. They don't need to be super-huge for that though.
 
Y'know, a flying boat - or water-based ekranoplan - would avoid a lot of the issues about airport size. The payload penalty of having a boat-hull might not matter at that sort of scale either, and it would be just the thing for trade and passengers in the Pacific.
I can't remember the source, but I seem to recall that the Russians had plans for nuclear powered ekranoplans in the 10-15,000 tonne range. If you have a fair quantity of high-priority cargo (ie: a ready reaction force and their vehicles/stores), a couple of those would come in handy.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I'd say that's a fair assesment. If you're trying to build an aircraft that hold more than say a 800 to 1000 people, you're probably better off to build a zepplin.

Zeppelins have huge size effectively unlimited, but are weight limited. The heaviest lift over fuel and engines I have seen on a Zeppelin is 160,000 pounds or 80 tons which is less than a C-5 by 20,000 pounds. Most Zeppelins were 40,000 to 80,000 pounds.

I dearly love Zeppelin TL, and I wish they were still around for scenic trips, but they can't really do the load you want them to do here. A 1000 people with luggage is probably near to 250,000 pounds. And with the slow speed of Zeppelin, you have to carry a lot of food to feed them for the trip across the Atlantic.

Zeppelins are idea for things that need long airborne time or a slow loiter speed when a ship is too slow and a train is not practical. So for example, you could do a 48 hour trip out of New Zealand to watch the whales near Antarctica. Or you might want to take a Zeppelin to fly up an see the Norweign coast line or Alaskan Coast line. Any more even with huge development budgets, they are a niche item.
 
Any discussion of large aircraft is not complete without mention of the CL-1201;

CL1201.jpg



http://aviationtrivia.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-aviation-those-who-dare-to-dream-are.html
 
Any discussion of large aircraft is not complete without mention of the CL-1201;

http://aviationtrivia.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-aviation-those-who-dare-to-dream-are.html

That is exactly why I'm doing this.

In all seriousness, the whole TL idea started to try to find a way to build that thing. :eek: At the moment I have not yet succeeded in justifying the construction of an 11,000,000-lb. atomic-powered flying aircraft carrier. I've got some ideas, but first I'm trying to justify the construction of an 11,000,000-lb. atomic-powered plane.
 
That is exactly why I'm doing this.

In all seriousness, the whole TL idea started to try to find a way to build that thing. :eek: At the moment I have not yet succeeded in justifying the construction of an 11,000,000-lb. atomic-powered flying aircraft carrier. I've got some ideas, but first I'm trying to justify the construction of an 11,000,000-lb. atomic-powered plane.

The US's carrier battle groups are effective diplomatic tools in their own right, and one reason for that is that they are relatively quick to deploy and can remain on-station for a reasonable duration. If they could travel at a speed of several hundred miles per hour, presumably they would become even more valuable.
 
The US's carrier battle groups are effective diplomatic tools in their own right, and one reason for that is that they are relatively quick to deploy and can remain on-station for a reasonable duration. If they could travel at a speed of several hundred miles per hour, presumably they would become even more valuable.

Right now I'm just trying to determine if I can make building atomic-powered gargantuan superplanes plausible. If I can manage that, I'll worry about hanging parasite aircraft on them later. I will note, though, that each one of those would likely cost the same or more than a flattop but carries only 22 fighters and has a shorter operational endurance.
 
This thing, if built, had better have at least as many fail-safes as it does screws. Can you imagine the disaster if it were to crash?
 
This thing, if built, had better have at least as many fail-safes as it does screws. Can you imagine the disaster if it were to crash?

Yes.

The reactor shielding does double duty as crash-shielding. In principle, the core can survive an impact at high subsonic speed into granite. (The crash shields were actually tested, BTW, using rocket sleds, although they never finished developing the full-speed version.) In addition, the reactor vessel is designed so that, in the event of a crash and subsequent loss-of-cooling, the core can be passively air-cooled.

More importantly, this is a TL that has accepted the radiation hormesis hypothesis and has heavy public buy-in for that approach. An acceptance of radiation exposure up to 50 mSv over a month as essentially harmless will hopefully limit the evacuation zone to the area of the crash in 99.9% of cases, and any evacuations over wider areas will mostly be temporary until the iodine and other short-lived isotopes die off. Finally, if you buy the hormesis hypothesis, cleanup is far more cost-effective if a larger area does need to be evacuated.

Edit to Add: For the record, I want to stick to Linear No-Threshold in the real world until we have considerably more evidence than we do right now. But Hormesis works great for fiction.
 
They could get very big if they are ground effect.
Possibly a flying wing might help too.

A flying wing would be the most optimal configuration, at least in situations where you don't have to worry about things like windows or evacuating 400 passengers in 90 seconds.

That is exactly why I'm doing this.

In all seriousness, the whole TL idea started to try to find a way to build that thing. :eek: At the moment I have not yet succeeded in justifying the construction of an 11,000,000-lb. atomic-powered flying aircraft carrier. I've got some ideas, but first I'm trying to justify the construction of an 11,000,000-lb. atomic-powered plane.

I eagerly await this timeline.:) Also, I need to update my own at some point...
 
I will note, though, that each one of those would likely cost the same or more than a flattop but carries only 22 fighters and has a shorter operational endurance.

Which is important if you're thinking about using them to fight a war, but perhaps less so if they're more of a means to awe the locals. There are situations where those 22 fighters would represent a significant change in the local balance of power. The British Invincible-class carriers had a similar-sized airgroup, and they were thought to have enough utility to hang on to after 1982. And the fact they're probably no more than 24 hours from any place on the planet might have advantages of it's own.
You also avoid the expense of the carrier's escort group, which is significant in it's own right.
At any rate, it's just a thought.

In terms of justifying such a craft in any terms we're really looking at a craft that can carry a few thousand tonnes of material at aircraft speeds, but at least at first will be severely limited in terms of destinations (unless it can use ports) and does not scale well to smaller loads. It might work well as a passenger transport on busy routes, perhaps especially with "luxury" accomodations (or at least more legroom). The other option is time-critical cargo of some sort - fresh foods, perhaps.
If the economics are competitive against conventional aircraft, then the efficiencies of operating at such a scale might be attractive on routes that have the right volume of cargo/passengers.
 
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