How "anti-science" was Nazi Germany?

Extremely. The Nazis distrusted virtually anything to do with theoretical sciences, one of the reasons their atomic program was so shit. They also had an obsession with flashy toys which led to things like the Tiger and Victory weapons, while abandoning more practical projects.

Try to build a Atomic bomb without using the Albert Einstein theory of relativity and Max Plank quantum mechanics
Everything "jewish" in Science were forbidden by Nazis, they even put a bounty on Einstein head.
While Von Weizsäcker serious believed they need Tons of enriched uranium for working Nuke
were Jewish refugees in USA cooking Plutonium for first Prototype...

But it end not here also the "little Details" play important role
Austrian Abraham Wald founded the field of statistical sequential analysis. but he was a Jew and before "Anschluss" he consider the USA as very save place to live
here he join the Statistical Research Group (SRG), a think tank for Pentagon.
As the US Navy came to SRG with problem how to Armor Placement on Allies Aircraft with out reduce the payload
The Navy Force presented nice analysis on that based on returning Bomber
Abraham Wald look on this analysis and shook his head and told them they were wrong.
There data was based on surviving Aircraft, not the one shot down by enemies, so reinforce the areas where the returning aircraft were unscathed,
After that The Germans and Japanese had serious problem to shoot down US aircraft.

Also improved Abraham Wald the US armaments industry by introducing quality control by taking samples.
Assuring high quality in US weapons.
 

Deleted member 1487

Try to build a Atomic bomb without using the Albert Einstein theory of relativity and Max Plank quantum mechanics
Max Planck wasn't Jewish:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck
Nor was theoretical physics dismissed in Germany, Heisenberg actually defeated the 'Deutschephysik' movement with Himmler's support, he just couldn't mention Einstein by name when he taught.

The situation with the Nazis was quite complicated, but they came down decidedly as anti-intellectual in most areas and were a particularly poisonous brand of the 19th century German Romanticism movement which had been described as being symbolized by a 'heart with testicles', i.e. masculine emotionality. All aggressive action, little thought. They needed and used science, engineering, and technology, but were decidedly against reasoned thought as the guide for the nation, otherwise how do you get WW2 in the first place?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It depended on the whims of the Nazi leaders with Himmler, for example, both championing the Weiteislehre theory and protecting Werner Heisenberg from the "Deutsche Physik" movement. That said, it was probably more anti-science than the USSR as the USSR, despite "Lysenkoism", didn't claim that the stars were made from ice or that the theory of relativity was a "capitalist lie".
 
Last edited:
There have been at least a few source items posted here to balance out the kludge.

I'd recommend 'Hitlers Scientists' as one useful English language primer for science in nazi Germany. Rhoades 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb' has a lot of information on exactly who among the European emigres contributed to the early Brit & US atomic research & what they contributed.
 
Max Planck wasn't Jewish:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck
Nor was theoretical physics dismissed in Germany, Heisenberg actually defeated the 'Deutschephysik' movement with Himmler's support, he just couldn't mention Einstein by name when he taught.

The situation with the Nazis was quite complicated, but they came down decidedly as anti-intellectual in most areas and were a particularly poisonous brand of the 19th century German Romanticism movement which had been described as being symbolized by a 'heart with testicles', i.e. masculine emotionality. All aggressive action, little thought. They needed and used science, engineering, and technology, but were decidedly against reasoned thought as the guide for the nation, otherwise how do you get WW2 in the first place?

I had understand that quantum mechanics was not part of 'Deutschephysik'
Or is that wrong information ?
 

Deleted member 1487

I had understand that quantum mechanics was not part of 'Deutschephysik'
Or is that wrong information ?
You are correct, but the Deutschephysik movement was defeated by Heisenberg and Himmler:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik#Under_the_Third_Reich
They met with moderate success, but the support from the Nazi party was not as great as Lenard and Stark would have preferred. After a long period of harassment of the quantum physicist Werner Heisenberg, including getting him labeled a "White Jew" in the July 15, 1937, issue of SS's weekly, Das Schwarze Korps (The Black Corps), they began to fall from influence. Heisenberg was not only a pre-eminent physicist whom the Nazis realised they were better off with than without, however "Jewish" his theory might be in the eyes of Stark and Lenard, but Heisenberg had, as a young boy, attended school with SS chief Heinrich Himmler. In a historic moment, Heisenberg's mother rang Himmler's mother and asked her if she would please tell the SS to give "Werner" a break. After beginning a full character evaluation, which Heisenberg both instigated and passed, Himmler forbade further attack on the physicist. Heisenberg would later employ his "Jewish physics," in the German project to develop nuclear fission for the purposes of nuclear weapons or nuclear energy use. Himmler promised Heisenberg that after Germany won the war, the SS would finance a physics institute to be directed by Heisenberg.[11]

Lenard began to play less and less of a role, and soon Stark ran into even more difficulty, as other scientists and industrialists known for being exceptionally "Aryan" came to the defense of Relativity and quantum mechanics. As historian Mark Walker puts it, "despite his best efforts, in the end his science was not accepted, supported, or used by the Third Reich. Stark spent a great deal of his time during the Third Reich fighting with bureaucrats within the National Socialist state. Most of the National Socialist leadership either never supported Lenard and Stark, or abandoned them in the course of the Third Reich."
 
There is this german quote from that time "Natural laws can not do anything that they are discovered by Jews"
some times to attribute Heisenberg.

On Education Level of the NSDAP leaders

Hitler Adolf, - dropout with 16 years, no further education. wannabes painter
Göring Hermann, - dropout At sixteen, then he was sent to a military academy in Berlin, from which he graduated with distinction !
Joseph Goebbels, - high-school graduate, studied literature and history, got a Doctor of Philosophy degree from the University of Heidelberg in 1921
Heinrich Himmler, - high-school graduate, studied agronomy, work as laboratory assistant for fertilizer manufacture
Rudolf Hess, - high school student, study mercantilistic,
Ernst Röhm - high-school graduate, graduated military academy,
Martin Bormann - studies at an agricultural trade high school but were interrupted do WW1 not resume his studies.
Albert Speer - high-school graduate, studied Architecture - end up as Minister of armaments industry.
Reinhard Heydrich - high-school graduate, studied music, enter Navy academy

the rest were, high-school graduate, studied jura (law), especial the ones responsible for the Nuremberg Laws and the Holocaust
 
There is this german quote from that time "Natural laws can not do anything that they are discovered by Jews"
some times to attribute Heisenberg.

On Education Level of the NSDAP leaders

Hitler Adolf, - dropout with 16 years, no further education. wannabes painter
Göring Hermann, - dropout At sixteen, then he was sent to a military academy in Berlin, from which he graduated with distinction !
Joseph Goebbels, - high-school graduate, studied literature and history, got a Doctor of Philosophy degree from the University of Heidelberg in 1921
Heinrich Himmler, - high-school graduate, studied agronomy, work as laboratory assistant for fertilizer manufacture
Rudolf Hess, - high school student, study mercantilistic,
Ernst Röhm - high-school graduate, graduated military academy,
Martin Bormann - studies at an agricultural trade high school but were interrupted do WW1 not resume his studies.
Albert Speer - high-school graduate, studied Architecture - end up as Minister of armaments industry.
Reinhard Heydrich - high-school graduate, studied music, enter Navy academy

the rest were, high-school graduate, studied jura (law), especial the ones responsible for the Nuremberg Laws and the Holocaust

Not a unusual mix for the US in the early 20 Century. University degrees were not considered mandatory or even necessary, just useful to supplement innate talent and 'drive' or efficiency. I dont know what what would have been common in other European nations. The key exception in the above list is Hitler who's poor education and anti intellectual attitude was paramount. Bormann is another who lacked any depth of education, but I dont know his attitude.

What I do see lacking in this group is a possible depth in what might be called a 'classical education'. The preindustrial education that was well grounded in philosophy, rhetoric, languages, mathmatics. The sort of education that trained a person in critical thinking and the ability to see the big picture. By the end of the 19th Century, when most of these men were educated the influence f this classic education was faded & less influential in the sort of technical schools that were becoming prevalent in the early 20th Century.
 
In decidedly as anti-intellectual in most areas and were a particularly poisonous brand of the 19th century German Romanticism movement which had been described as being symbolized by a 'heart with testicles', i.e. masculine emotionality. All aggressive action, little thought. They needed and used science, engineering, and technology, but were decidedly against reasoned thought as the guide for the nation, otherwise how do you get WW2 in the first place?

Which is why means that any TL where they survive the Nazis won't have much science, engineering, and technology after very long. In a the short term they can depend on the generation of scientists and engineers educated before they came to power but in the long-term such an attitude is not conducive to bringing about the next generation of scientists and engineers they need to keep goiing.
 

Deleted member 1487

Which is why means that any TL where they survive the Nazis won't have much science, engineering, and technology after very long. In a the short term they can depend on the generation of scientists and engineers educated before they came to power but in the long-term such an attitude is not conducive to bringing about the next generation of scientists and engineers they need to keep goiing.
Probably not unless they reform. Regardless there will be significant damage to their sciences and engineering talent pools, not least of which as a result of lives lost in the war. They will have substantial assets still even given their damage to education, but it will certainly be felt a generation after the war. The question is what if any changes to education happen in the positive direction post-war given complaints from industry, universities, and even existing scientists to the relevant authorities. Heisenberg was able to get Himmler's help on crushing the 'German physics' movement after all and could teach relativity and push theoretical physics.
 
Which is why means that any TL where they survive the Nazis won't have much science, engineering, and technology after very long. In a the short term they can depend on the generation of scientists and engineers educated before they came to power ...

Or those who survive the war. The haphazard conscription of technicians and engineers was already damaging German industry. If the losses are similar to OTL this Reich will be paying non Germans to do a lot of their technical, engineering and science that Germans had done prewar. That is if they change their policy on the treatment of of non Germans. This could lead to the surrounding nation resuming post their advance in technical and science education & making money with their surplus skilled laobr working in Germany. While the Germans become a class of overseers 'educated; in a sort of nazi version of management/administration and political ideology.

Alternately Germany burns through the German & non German human capitol, leading to decline as the skilled portion of Europes population falls below critical mass. That is they can no longer keep the trains running on time or the autobhan pavement smooth.
 
Actually in some subjects like medicine (especially cancer and anti-tobacco), the Nazis were decades ahead of America and the West. Check out a book called The Nazi War on Cancer, it's fascinating and well researched.
 
Given that they had a base on the moon and reached the Pluto in five hours they must have been very much pro-science. Tesla and Schauberger were working for them.
 
Top