How Americanized can France get?

Probably, but they didn't really have opportunities to rise to prominence in a Gaullist-dominated environment.

I... think you have a peculiar idea of Europe at large if you think its countries have undergone a cultural shift towards being very similar to the US. Pro-tip: they're not, by very, very far. When I say that the US is a completely different civilization compared to EU, I mean it. Some elements are shared, but by far and large, there is a very deep divide when you across the Atlantic. The French tend to be more vocal about it and to have more geopolitical opposition to the US than other EU countries, but in terms of culture and civilization, Europe hasn't really "americanized".
I agree. Even in regards to sports. The notion of your high school/lycée/gymnasium team being a big local deal is weird. Also no one plays American football or baseball, football everywhere and rugby or handball in a few ones
 
Probably, but they didn't really have opportunities to rise to prominence in a Gaullist-dominated environment.

I... think you have a peculiar idea of Europe at large if you think its countries have undergone a cultural shift towards being very similar to the US. Pro-tip: they're not, by very, very far. When I say that the US is a completely different civilization compared to EU, I mean it. Some elements are shared, but by far and large, there is a very deep divide when you across the Atlantic. The French tend to be more vocal about it and to have more geopolitical opposition to the US than other EU countries, but in terms of culture and civilization, Europe hasn't really "americanized".
Been a while since I was there, but, got to agree. Strange, but the older I get, the more I like and respect the French...they are different, from us and the rest of Europe, but I find them charming and reassuring. One thing; if they ever start making shit bread like we have here in the states, it's fucking over...I mean it...
 
Been a while since I was there, but, got to agree. Strange, but the older I get, the more I like and respect the French...they are different, from us and the rest of Europe, but I find them charming and reassuring. One thing; if they ever start making shit bread like we have here in the states, it's fucking over...I mean it...
If it comes to it, there is one last bastion for good baguettes: Vietnam. But keep in mind that most European countries are very different from each other, and even moreso from the US, for historical and geographical reasons that can't really be erased. You can't create the suburban culture in a place with strong historical city centres and high population density, while the defiance towards the idea of a government shown in the US is deeply foreign to most Europeans even when we inflicted more atrocities to each other through governments than anything ever done by the US gov' to its population. Or just look at the way each continent's population considers human relations, friendliness, morality. Hell, morality. The US has a culture based on some moral principles stamped onto a relative void (at the time) and a strong internal propaganda reinforcing the idea of clear morality, of good and evil. On the other hand, European culture is defined by an endless series of wars and cultural creativitiy based on suffering, where everything is grey at best.

To fully "convert" a country on a continent to the other's culture, you'd need cultural genocide. For starters.
 
I agree. Even in regards to sports. The notion of your high school/lycée/gymnasium team being a big local deal is weird. Also no one plays American football or baseball, football everywhere and rugby or handball in a few ones

The only reason football or baseball aren't big things in post-1945 europe instead of the local sports is that the new deal bureaucrats who rebuilt it from the ground up were people who were to put it nicely the geeky set in school, and thus wouldn't have any reasons to want to push it. Stick a few non-nerd types in that group in 1945 and odds are nobody in western europe would know what soccer was. There'd be a EFL, comparable to the NFL of course.
 
The only reason football or baseball aren't big things in post-1945 europe instead of the local sports is that the new deal bureaucrats who rebuilt it from the ground up were people who were to put it nicely the geeky set in school, and thus wouldn't have any reasons to want to push it. Stick a few non-nerd types in that group in 1945 and odds are nobody in western europe would know what soccer was. There'd be a EFL, comparable to the NFL of course.
... that's a very bold and hilariously laughable assumption that completely ignores the football culture in Europe, from both sides of the Iron Curtain. Noone is really interested in handegg: we have rugby.
 
Going by how much pre-1939 europe got rebuilt from square one by the US in the west and soviets in the east occupying it, no not really laughable. The differences from US politics mentioned are due to the fact there wasn't anything like the old right in the mainstream anymore -- this is why if you go on polchat, you get euros having similar reactions to the US having the GOP and say the HRC-mitt romney neocon wing of the democrats the way you might to a neighbor owning 25 pit bulls and a bengal tiger.
 
Going by how much pre-1939 europe got rebuilt from square one by the US in the west and soviets in the east occupying it, no not really laughable. The differences from US politics mentioned are due to the fact there wasn't anything like the old right in the mainstream anymore -- this is why if you go on polchat, you get euros having similar reactions to the US having the GOP and say the HRC-mitt romney neocon wing of the democrats the way you might to a neighbor owning 25 pit bulls and a bengal tiger.
Yes, pretty laughable, that’s what I said, if you actually believe what you just wrote. The reconstruction funded by the US was nowhere near that deeply-seated, and if your school taught you that, you might want to get reimbursed.
 
... that's a very bold and hilariously laughable assumption that completely ignores the football culture in Europe, from both sides of the Iron Curtain. Noone is really interested in handegg: we have rugby.
Though interestingly not Rugby League. That is an interesting PoD and a good example of what can happen when you pick the wrong side.
 
Though interestingly not Rugby League. That is an interesting PoD and a good example of what can happen when you pick the wrong side.
Actually, I don’t know how eggball appeared from rugby. The sports are pretty similar, but one encourages more impacts and armour wearing compared to the other and, IIRC, has more pauses in the game than faked injuries in football.
 
Wrong egg ball.

Rugby League is a version of Rugby that went professional long before Rugby Union, largely because it was played by poor people who couldn't afford to just play sport.


Introduced in 1934
From Wiki
"With rugby league's acceptance of professionalism and spectator-friendly rules, the French viewed it as a modern and innovative game, and it grew quickly in popularity.[4] Within five years, the number of rugby league clubs was approaching the number of rugby union clubs."

"The Vichy Government under Philippe Pétain associated rugby league with the pre-war socialist government, the United Kingdom and General Charles de Gaulle. Some of the French Rugby Union's senior administrators took advantage of their close relationship with the new regime to have rugby league outlawed as a "corrupter" of French youth.[6] All funds as well as grounds and equipment belonging to the French Rugby League Federation were confiscated and handed over to rugby union. The figure of assets stripped has been estimated at two million 1940 French francs, none of which was ever returned.[7] In addition, rugby league players were forced to switch to rugby union or other sports or quit sport altogether."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_league_in_France

I just found it a relevent example of a sport being actively killed off in France by political overlords.


Start from there...
[American Accent]
Rugby Union. Sport of Collaborators. Why don't you try this better version?
[/American Accent]
*hands over body armor and helmet*
 
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Start from there...
[American Accent]
Rugby Union. Sport of Collaborators. Why don't you try this better version?
[/American Accent]
*hands over body armor and helmet*
Then it kinda fails again because unlike popular sports pretty much everywhere on the planet, it requires tons of equipment to be played. Football has one massive advantage over all others: you need a round-ish object and... and that's all, actually. Which is why the World Cup is the most watched sport event on the planet, much moreso than the Olympic Games. I mean, when three of the five most watched sport events are football ones (with the Olympic Games and the Tour de France rounding up the five), you have to realize that there is a natural appeal of the sports to, well, pretty much everyone.

You... might get somewhere with basketball. But that US variant of rugby? Nah.
 
I agree. Even in regards to sports. The notion of your high school/lycée/gymnasium team being a big local deal is weird.

I like the Awe/Horror on visiting Europeans realizing that Chevy Chase in _Christmas Vacation_ obsession over overdoing lights
is not Hollywood, but very, very real all over the USA
 
Overall, it's important to remember that France was not a blank slate in 1945, with everybody stunned into a blank slate.
Life went on, people kept playing or came back. Prisoners played in the camps.
After the war, life continued or resumed, the old habits came back, and none of those included baseball or american football.

I'd also dispute how much of the Anglo-Saxon influence in France is actually american. Sure, you have a sliver of America in the culture with movies and some music but, and especially music wise, a lot of what you'd see as Anglo-Saxon influence is actually English.
There's a deep fascination (mutual I shall say) with England, the eternal enemy. A lot of the music for example would come from there, fashion too. America is a young nation, with not much of a history, so less time to influence.

I once heard a saying: Europeans think 300km is a long distance, Americans think 300 years is a long time
 
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