House of Clarence

Am thinking of a timeline where Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence and second eldest surviving son of Edward III of England, has a son from his first marriage with Elizabeth de Burgh. This son would be born in 1357 and would be named William.

Now what I am wondering is with him having a son, does Clarence have a second marriage when De Burgh dies or not? And what effect does William have on events later on the timeline? Would he be named heir by Richard II?
 
Am thinking of a timeline where Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence and second eldest surviving son of Edward III of England, has a son from his first marriage with Elizabeth de Burgh. This son would be born in 1357 and would be named William.

Now what I am wondering is with him having a son, does Clarence have a second marriage when De Burgh dies or not? And what effect does William have on events later on the timeline? Would he be named heir by Richard II?
Naming an heir was not exactly Richards problem, and usually didn't happen until the Monarch thought death might be approaching.
 
Ah true enough, true enough. Hmm, if he was in Ireland and Bolingbroke still played his little stunt, what might happen there?

Isn't tha, like Clarence having a second son and Williams further adventures, the subject for the imagination of the alternate timeline author?
 
Isn't tha, like Clarence having a second son and Williams further adventures, the subject for the imagination of the alternate timeline author?

Aha yes, but am just trying to make suer that what I come up with is not out of the realms of realism
 
Lionel of Antwerp, second son of Edward III and Philippa of Hainaut, Duke of Clarence married Elizabeth De Burgh, Countess of Ulster in 1352, their first born child, a daughter named Philippa was born in 1355. This birth was celebrated, the first trueborn grandchild of King Edward and his queen was not something to be scoffed at, though, there were those who talked of how it was a girl and not a boy. And yet, just two years later a boy was born to Lionel and his wife at Westminster Palace, the boy born with blond hair and blue eyes, was named William.

The boy's birth was celebrated throughout the realm, and was used as a tool to strengthen the royal family's image with the nobility and the public. The boy was christened some months later, and his godparents were his grandfather and grandmother the king and Queen. William and Philippa would accompany their parents when they sailed for Ireland in 1361, and throughout their time there would be seen rarely, though William as his father's heir was shown more often than his sister was. Lionel of Antwerp would eventually leave Ireland some short years after his landing, disgusted with the task at hand, returning to his estates in England. His wife Elizabeth however, had died whilst they had been in Ireland and as such had been buried in Ireland as were her wishes. Her son William was now Earl of Ulster, though his father ruled those lands in his son's name and used regents within the earldom for the time being.

With there for the time being peace between England and France, Lionel spent most of his time with his father as his father tried time and again to win him a throne in Scotland, a few times when it looked as if the two realms would go to war once more, Lionel began preparing to command the hosts, and yet those wars never materialised and he instead settled for governing his lands and helping his brothers and father in government. His children grew up at court, Philippa was hailed as a great beauty and there were many offers for her hand, however, her father was willing to allow her some say in who her husband to be would be, and when in 1368 she was married to Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March there were great celebrations and for some who remembered the fall of the House of Mortimer early in Edward's reign this was something to be memorised. Lionel was in talks with the Earls of Hereford and his own brothers over possible marriage options for his son William when he died from a fever in October, 1368, his death left many at court surprised, though there were some who whispered it had been the work of his brother the Duke of Lancaster. It should be noted that William soon fell under the guardianship of his uncle the Duke of Lancaster for some time.

William, 2nd Duke of Clarence, was at the age of eleven, tall for his age, handsome as were his cousins, and was smart, good with numbers, and with mental thought, less so with swords, he was an enticing ward for many given the lands under his control. And as such there was some resentment when Lancaster took him on as a ward. William himself would later write how he was nervous entering his uncle's household and how he wondered why he could not join his older sister in the Marches.
 
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William, Duke of Clarence and Earl of Ulster spent most of his time within the DUke of Lancaster's holdings, as the Duke warred in Castille, fighting alongside the Black Prince. Clarence became friends with Lancaster's oldest daughter Philippa, and there was talk early on of perhaps having the two of them marry, certainly none at court thought it beyond Gaunt to do such a thing. Clarence, was quickly growing into a charming young man, one who was glib of tongue and knew how to get people to do what he wanted. A dalliance with a woman married to a man sworn to Lancaster, ended with the man paying Clarence some money to keep quiet about some illicit activities that the man engaged in. Clarence accepted the payment, but later told his tutor about it, and it was summarily reported to the Duchess of Lancaster who had the man whipped.

Clarence watched the display with apathy, and later spoke to his cousin about the whole event, and they both agreed that perhaps it would be best if they did not speak of it anymore. It was during this late period in 1369, that word came of a battle between King Pedro the Cruel and his bastard brother Henry, Henry had been slain during the conflict, and his son was under French protection. Henry's pretensions on the throne ended with his death, and soon enough, the war moved back to the issue of Aquitaine and French action there.

In Aquitaine, the Black Prince, suffering from an illness picked up on campaign in Castille, viciously sacked Limoges, which had capitulated to the French and almost all there killed. Despite Limoges, the English were suffering, the Battle of Pontvallain, which ended with another defeat for the English. Morale was low, Edward the Black Prince was ailing, his brothers were not as effective as he was, and his father King Edward was at a loss at what to do. However, without the Castillian fleet on their side, the French still did not have naval supremacy, there was no battle of La Rochelle, and the English landed another army on the shores of France for another round of fighting.
 
With the passing of King David II Bruce in 1371, the Royal House of Bruce came to an end, and his nephew Robert Stewart came to the throne as Robert II. There was some minor protestation by the Earl of Douglas, though the reasons behind this are not known even to this day, some think there was an issue over Robert's right to the throne, others that Douglas had issues with two members in charge of the law north and south of the forth. Robert II, soon settled this issue, and named his son Alexander Stewart as Lord of Badenoch, and named him Justiciar North of the Forth, confirmed his son John, Earl of Carrick as Justiciar south of the Forth, and got Parliament to pass an act recognising the rights of his sons from his first marriage to the throne, not going over primogeniture, but a safe guard. King Robert began considering the chances of renewing the Auld Alliance and attacking England for tactical gains, however, there were several places within Southern Scotland that were still held by the English, and therefore, the king called the banners and in the winter of 1371, marched southward to drive out these English held garrisons.

Scots activity stirred the border lords in England and there was conflict backwards and forwards for some time, King Edward III in France at the time planning another assault into the French heartland, sent word for his son the Duke of York to deal with this problem. The Duke marched north with some 3,000 men and met with the Scots at Berwick, where instead of giving battle, he negotiated a treaty, which allowed Roxburgh, Jedburgh and Annandale to pass back into Scottish hands but kept Berwick. English garrisons were recalled into England, and then the Duke of York sailed for France to join his father and brothers in preparations for a final campaign there.

In early 1372, an English force under the command of Edward, the Black Prince landed in Aquitaine to renew the conflict with France. The campaign got off to a very good start and the English recorded some very good victories. King Charles V of France, hurriedly began preparing for his own response and summoned the banners, sending a force under his commander Sir Betrand, an battle was fought near Loches which resulted in another decisive English victory and also led to the death of Sir Bertrand. Charles V, knowing he was either going to be broken or win in the final campaigns that came up, summoned his lords to meet him and from there the campaign renewed itself. There were several engagements throughout the rest of 1372, but eventually in early 1373 Charles V negotiated a settlement with the English allowing them to keep Aquitaine and Gascony without the need of fealty though a hefty sum was required for these territories. Edward the Black Prince knowing that his father did not have sufficient funds to pay the fee called upon his ally Pedro the Cruel for the repayment, the King of Castille reluctantly parted with his money and furthermore gave the man the Lordship of Biscay. With these additional funds, Edward paid the fee and returned to his lands in Aquitaine, whilst his brothers John and Edmund returned to England.

The Black Prince, having married Joan of Kent in 1360 and having sired two sons with her, their sons Edward and Richard, returned to his wife and held court once more as Prince of Aquitaine. However, the prince and princess of Wales had suffered a grievous loss in early 1371, when their eldest son Edward had died from the plague. Edward now took steps to ensure the safety of his only remaining heir Richard. In England, King Edward was growing increasingly frail, and was furthermore relying heavily on his son John, Duke of Lancaster to attend to the affairs of the realm, something that was causing much resentment amongst some of the nobility.
 
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Interesting idea but parts of your TL are unlikely. First off, by the 1370s Edward III had basically delegated control of military operations to his sons and their officers, so the idea that the King, at nearly 60, would personally lead a campaign and die in battle is pretty far fetched. Second, is Edward the black Prince unmarried here and if so why? Finally, if Pedro the Cruel was restored and his half-brother is dead, then he has no excuse to not honor his deal with the Black Prince. Realistically he should be strong-armed into repaying the cost of the campaign and into handing over the promised Lordship of Biscay.

In all the idea is good but it could use some work. Good luck!
 
Interesting idea but parts of your TL are unlikely. First off, by the 1370s Edward III had basically delegated control of military operations to his sons and their officers, so the idea that the King, at nearly 60, would personally lead a campaign and die in battle is pretty far fetched. Second, is Edward the black Prince unmarried here and if so why? Finally, if Pedro the Cruel was restored and his half-brother is dead, then he has no excuse to not honor his deal with the Black Prince. Realistically he should be strong-armed into repaying the cost of the campaign and into handing over the promised Lordship of Biscay.

In all the idea is good but it could use some work. Good luck!

Ah, I remember reading somewhere that in 1372 Edward was planning an invasion of France which he himself would lead.

Secondly, the Black Prince is married, why do you think he's not?

Thirdly, yes Pedro is going be reminded of that
 
The Duke of Lancaster increasingly in command of the affairs of government, with his father ailing and his brother the Black Prince attending to affairs within Aquitaine, begins negotiating a marriage between himself and King Pedro's daughter Constance of Castile. King Pedro, who feels himself indebted to the English for their assistance in securing his throne, enters the negotiations somewhat open handedly, and this is something that forces some within his court to begin speaking to King Charles V of France about the possibility of placing Henry's son John on the throne of Castile. Eventually a marriage between Constance and John is agreed and on the 12th of August, 1373 the marriage takes place in Westminster, London. Noted for his attendance is William, Duke of Clarence, now aged sixteen, the Duke is tall, handsome and quite smart. The Duke of Lancaster, who is still the Duke's guardian arranges a marriage between the duke and his own daughter Philippa, who is aged thirteen. Shortly after his own marriage, the Duke makes the formal announcement of the betrothal between his daughter Philippa and his war William Duke of Clarence.

In Aquitaine, Edward the Black Prince is slowly rebuilding the trust his people had in him, and though he is plagued with illnesses, he slowly begins to do this. He has some success, and it is reported that never before has Edward been so well liked or received within Aquitaine or Gascony before. Eventually word reaches him from those such as his own brother Edmund of Langley, asking that he return to England to help curb their brother's excesses. Edward wondering at this, leaves his wife and son in Aquitaine and heads for England, where he finds things to be somewhat bleak. His brother the Duke of Lancaster has been rewarding those who support his measures, and as such there is growing resentment amongst the commons, and even within the Lords. Furthermore, Edward III's mistress Alice Perrers is found to be a corrupting influence on the king. Edward the Black Prince, begins making alliances within the lords and the commons, and in the Parliament of 1374 takes control from his brother, and sends his brother back to his estates. Edward begins reforming the government, removing those ministers his brother had appointed and trying to bring in more policies that will ease the burden on the people.

The Duke of Lancaster though, does not take well to this and though he retires to his estates he continues to communicate with those lords and ladies who had been dismissed by his brother the Prince of Wales. As such, he begins building a power base and takes on the role of the opposition to his brother in the lords. There are various debates and heated arguments between the two brothers within Parliament as well as in private, something that causes the king much distress. It is during this time that the Duke of Clarence, begins taking more of a role in the affairs of the realm, he attends the House of Lords for a debate on the reforms of his uncle the Prince of Wales, and argues in favour of it, going against his guardian and potential father in law, stating that the government must be more robust and less bloated. John, Duke of Lancaster does not forget this and begins making his own moves to further the wedding between his nephew Clarence and his daughter Philippa.
 
On the 21st August, 1374, King Edward III passes away in his sleep, the sickness that had been affecting him since early 1370 finally taking its toll. He is mourned in England, and in France, his passing is noted with some interest, with King Charles making plans to recapture Aquitaine and Gascony. His son the Prince of Wales, is formally crowned on the 15th September, 1374 and ascends the throne as King Edward IV. Edward assumes the titles Duke of Aquitaine and Duke of Gascony, having previously considered calling himself King of Aquitaine but deciding against it. The first thing he has to sort out is the conflict with his brother the Duke of Lancaster, whilst the conflict between them was more verbal than anything else, Edward did not wish to see it escalate into anything else, knowing as he did the power his brother had. And so, on the 1st October, he summoned his brother to Westminster, and formally reconciled with him, and together the two began planning another invasion of France, for both knew that Charles V was not one to rest on his laurels, and soon enough their possessions within France would be threatened.

Another matter that is brought up by Edward IV, is the issue of the Duke of Clarence, the young Duke now seventeen, is a powerful magnate in his own right, and his lands in Ireland are nothing to be scoffed at. With the issues within Ireland coming to something of a head, John convinces his brother the king, to give him sufficient funds to allow his ward and nephew to set himself up as Lord Lieutenant within Ireland. The king agrees to this, and on the 15th December, 1374, the DUke of Clarence and the Duke of Lancaster set sail for Ireland with some 3,000 men determined to enforce law and order within the country, and bring it more firmly under the crown's control. Arriving in Ireland in the new year, the two Dukes find themselves facing more of a diplomatic situation than an armed one, and so find themselves coming to the negotiating table rather than the battlefield.
 
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