So with David being married to one of these, Isabella of France is given to Edward II
House of Bruce, a continued dynasty
- Thread starter VVD0D95
- Start date
.I personally would pick a de Clare as their father, Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl of Gloucester, 6th Earl of Hertford, is of higher birth to Mary's dad, Sir Ralph de Monthermer
VVD0D95
Banned
So, Robert Junior marries Elizabeth de Clare in 1314, following the negotiations after Bannockburn, she comes with a dowry and perhaps the allowance from her brother's estates split between her and her sisters. In 1315, she gives birth to a son, also named Robert, followed by two more surviving children and a stillbirth when her father in law Robert I dies in 1329.
Her husband ascends the throne as Robert II, with the following children:
Robert, Earl of Carrick (b.1315)
Isabella (b.1317)
Gilbert (b.1324)
With his brother David, having sired heirs as well, the House of Bruce looks fairly secure.
However, Edward Balliol remains in England, and is a potentially trouble maker for Edward III.
What might occur from here, or what would be interesting to see occur?
Her husband ascends the throne as Robert II, with the following children:
Robert, Earl of Carrick (b.1315)
Isabella (b.1317)
Gilbert (b.1324)
With his brother David, having sired heirs as well, the House of Bruce looks fairly secure.
However, Edward Balliol remains in England, and is a potentially trouble maker for Edward III.
What might occur from here, or what would be interesting to see occur?
List of Edward II's betrothals:
And IIRC @Jonathan, Edward I and Philippe le Bel played around with betrothals for Marguerite and Blanche de France for Edward II. Since the Blanche mentioned above was first betrothed to Jean de Flandres, then Edward II, and then married to a Habsburg duke (I think Edward sent an embassy to request Blanche's hand, but by then she was already en route to Vienna), but while Philippe le Bel's daughters, (also confusingly, Marguerite and Blanche) were betrothed to Fernando IV of Castile almost in succession to one another, the only betrothal mentioned for Isabelle is that to Edward II.
VVD0D95
Banned
Oh that's quite interesting, and sure to render some interesting dynamics politically.
What do you think about Robert Junior marrying Elizabeth de Clare?
I don't see why not. Since Edward doesn't have any ROYAL English granddaughters of age (although getting Edward II wed to Blanche/Marguerite de France instead of Isabelle might be good all round) a half-royal de Clare might not be a bad runner up.
However I will warn of possible consanguinity issues that might arise. Isabel de Clare (Elizabeth de Clare's grandpa's sister) married Robert VI de Bruce (grandpa to King Bob). Ergo, she'd be second cousin to her father-in-law. I'm not sure how marriage to such close relatives was taken back then.
I can't see a second cousin being a problem to be honest, especially if it's once removed. They may be at odds with Rome, but isn't this the time of the great Schism? Maybe the Avignon pope will give them a dispensation, if only to annoy Rome?
Avignon didn't do things solely to annoy Rome. Avignon would've issued a dispensation out of belief that they truly WERE the head of the one universal church. Just as Rome did.
That said, take a look at Jacqueline of Bavaria, Countess of Holland, Hainaut and Seeland's third marriage to the duke of Gloucester to see what happens when Rome and Avignon don't agree on whether a marriage is formally over or not (I imagine that dispensations on grounds of consanguinity would fall into the same bracket). Louis, duc d'Orléans' original betrothal to Katalin of Hungary, ran into problems because France and Hungary acknowledged different popes.
It'd be pretty messy if Avignon grants the dispensation and Rome is persuaded by the powers that be to not agree with it.
VVD0D95
Banned
Hmm true true
also true I suppose they’d wait for confirmation from the pope in return for Robert I giving the church more benefits than otl
All right, I take your point. But is it viable to have Avignon grant the dispensation and Rome ignore it. What happens then?
VVD0D95
Banned
Hmm the schism happened from 1309 so if the betrothal happens in 1304, could they then get it through before then?
@isabella and @mcdnab can correct me if I'm wrong, but the betrothal meant that both parties agreed to seek a dispensation from the papacy (or that the dispensation was already obtained, or would be no problem to obtain). Not to mention that Bob Jnr and Ms de Clare are both still in the single digits in 1304, so while a betrothal can be agreed (perhaps a dispensation even issued), neither is of age to consent to the marriage yet. And should push come to shove, whichever party could presumably always appeal to a friendly pope to have the marriage annulled on the grounds that neither party is of lawful age to consent to such an arrangement yet.
VVD0D95
Banned
True enough, though I suppose that following Bannockburn should the marriage agreement still be standing, both sides might agree to it as part of the peace?
Sounds reasonable. Of course, this would be an alt-Bannockburn which could have a different outcome. If the English are defeated I doubt very much Bob Snr is gonna necessarily want an English bride - Hell, he might see it as a sort of vindication and start looking to the continent/France for a bride. If the Scots lose, however, then the English can force Bob Jnr and Ms de Clare's marriage (and just BTW, the de Clares descended from an illegitimate half-brother (or somesuch) of William the Conqueror, so they were about as close to princes du sang of the early Plantagenets/house of Normandy, until King John's two boys, that one could get).
That could be interesting. The Scottish losing Bannockburn, I mean. It would certainly change Scotland in the short term...