House of Bruce, a continued dynasty

So, I've done threads on this before, but thought I'd create a new thread, to set the ground running for a future timeline I'm planning on this.

Here's some of my thoughts:

Pod: Isabella of Mar does not die in childbirth, and therefore remains Robert the Bruce's wife. She and Robert go onto have more children. The consequences of this include Robert potentially having adult sons to help fight during the war of independence against England, and also not having a marriage to Elizabeth de Burgh.

His children with Isabella of Mar:

Marjorie (b.1296)

Robert (b.1298)

Isabella (b.1301)

David (b.1304)

Margaret (b.1307)

Alexander (b.1310)

Now, my query for you all is this: with this scenario set before you, what do you think would be the most interesting thing to explore and see?

Who might be considered potential marriages for Robert's children? I imagine during the war for independence, he'd use Marjorie and Robert and Isabella to build support for his cause. Marjorie to Walter Stewart makes sense, but what about Robert and Isabella?

Is it considered outlandish for Robert junior to be fighting at Bannockburn in 1314? Might we see Robert's children with Isabella protected un the Earldom of Mar, given the familial ties?

And what should become of Elizabeth de Burgh?
 
I suppose the dates on some of those later children means Isabella escapes Elizabeth's OTL capture?
Yeah that’s what I’m trying to figure out. As she’s alive there’s a much stronger link to mar here for Robert so could she and her kids end up there?
 
A possible marriage between Robert junior and a surviving Catherine of Valois (b.1299) could occur as part of the Auld Alliance and a way to gain international support for Robert I's claims to the throne
 
A possible marriage between Robert junior and a surviving Catherine of Valois (b.1299) could occur as part of the Auld Alliance and a way to gain international support for Robert I's claims to the throne

The Valois aren't gonna be big on marrying Catherine to Bob Jnr since they've already "got" a Scots alliance in the betrothal between Cat's sister Isabelle and Edward de Balliol.

Also, if Isabella of Mar lives, how does Bob Snr make sure the English back him? Marriage to Elizabeth de Burgh was a big part of that AFAIK
 
The Valois aren't gonna be big on marrying Catherine to Bob Jnr since they've already "got" a Scots alliance in the betrothal between Cat's sister Isabelle and Edward de Balliol.

Also, if Isabella of Mar lives, how does Bob Snr make sure the English back him? Marriage to Elizabeth de Burgh was a big part of that AFAIK

Hmm this is very true, but was English support crucial to Bob snr returning to Scotland? Could he perhaps then use his son Bob junior iun his place to get English backing?
 
Hmm this is very true, but was English support crucial to Bob snr returning to Scotland? Could he perhaps then use his son Bob junior iun his place to get English backing?

I'm not sure. Edward I has no spare daughters around Bob Jnr's age (well, he's got Eleanor Jr, but she was betrothed to the future Queen of France's brother in Burgundy very early on, and still died young). It also doesn't seem likely that the English are gonna risk a princess for an uncertain crown. Maybe Blanche of Lancaster (b.1305) but I'm not sure.

Bruce is going to have to make up the loss of Elizabeth de Burgh somewhere. Since, Liz and Edward de Balliol are more or less the same age. What's to stop Edward wedding her instead (I'm sure there are dozens of reasons why, but its a hypothetical question) and thus securing English support for the Balliols?
 
I'm not sure. Edward I has no spare daughters around Bob Jnr's age (well, he's got Eleanor Jr, but she was betrothed to the future Queen of France's brother in Burgundy very early on, and still died young). It also doesn't seem likely that the English are gonna risk a princess for an uncertain crown. Maybe Blanche of Lancaster (b.1305) but I'm not sure.

Bruce is going to have to make up the loss of Elizabeth de Burgh somewhere. Since, Liz and Edward de Balliol are more or less the same age. What's to stop Edward wedding her instead (I'm sure there are dozens of reasons why, but its a hypothetical question) and thus securing English support for the Balliols?

As in Edward Balliol marrying Isabelle de Valois, or Edward marrying Bruce's Liz?

And hmm, perhaps we could see a marriage to one of Edward I's granddaughters: Mary de Monthermer could be someone no?
 
As in Edward Balliol marrying Isabelle de Valois, or Edward marrying Bruce's Liz?

And hmm, perhaps we could see a marriage to one of Edward I's granddaughters: Mary de Monthermer could be someone no?

It was just a suggestion of how to recoup the loss of Liz de Burgh. Not exactly sure how it would work
 
It was just a suggestion of how to recoup the loss of Liz de Burgh. Not exactly sure how it would work

Ahh that's fair, and yeah, I am slowly warming to the thought of Robert junior marrying Mary de Monthermer. Perhaps they're betrothed when Robert senior is down in England from 1302, with his wife, and then perhaps later on as part of the peace following Bannockburn, the marriage actually goes ahead?
 
Robert the Bruce (11/7/1274 – 7 June 1329) m. Isabella of Mar (c. 1277–12/12/1335)

Marjorie (b.1296-1316) m. 1315, Walter Stewart, 6th High Steward of Scotland (1296–9/4/1327) [1]
Robert Steward, 7th High Steward of Scotland (2/3/1316–19/4/1390)​

Robert II (b. 11/5/1298) m. Isabella of France (1295 – 22/8/1358) [2]
Robert III (1312
David (1316
Isabella (1318
Marjorie (1321​

Isabella (b.1301) m. Sir Andrew Murray, Earl of Petty and Bothwell (1298–1338) [3]
Sir Andrew Murray (d.1351)
Sir Robert Murray (d.1361)​

Prince David, Earl of Carrick (b.1304) m. Isabella Stewart (unknown) [4]
Prince Robert, Earl of Carrick (1329-)
Isabella of Carrick (1331-)​

Margaret (b.1307) m. Domhnall II, Earl of Mar (1293–11/8/1332) [5]
Christine of Mar (1327-)
Robert, Earl of Mar, (1330-1377)
Margaret of Mar (1333-)​

Prince-Archbishop Alexander (b.1310-1382) [6]

[1] Same as OTL
[2] After Edward I attempted to break the engagement several times for political advantage, King Philip IV of France, arranged a marriage between his daughter and the heir to the Scottish throne.
[3] Andrew Murray was the son of Andrew Moray, William Wallace's companion-in-arms. During his campaign of 1303 Edward I marched his army north reaching as far as Kinross and took the 5 year old Andrew Murray hostage, and the boy spent the next 11 years in English captivity, returning home to Scotland after the prisoner exchanges at Bannockburn. The following year he attended the Scottish Parliament at Ayr when the succession to the throne was decided. Murray acceded his father to the lordship of Petty and his uncle, Sir William Murray, to the lordship of Bothwell in Lanarkshire. In OTL, 1326 Murray married Christina Bruce, sister of King Robert I, widow of (1) Gartnait, Earl of Mar, and (2) Sir Christopher Seton, so not far fetched to see him marry Robert's daughter instead
[4] Isabella Stewart, was the daughter of Sir Alexander Stewart of Bonkyll (first cousin of Walter the Steward [father-in-law of Princess Marjorie of Scotland) and Sir James Douglas, two of the most important commanders during the First War of Scottish Independence. He was also the brother-in-law of Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl of Moray, nephew of King Robert I of Scotland. ) and Jean Fitz James
[5] Domhnall II, Earl of Mar, was the son of Gartnait, Earl of Mar (Brother of Isabella of Mar) while his mother is believed to be Christina Bruce (sister of Robert de Bruce) bringing Margaret into her mother title, protecting the Earldom of Mar.
[6] Archbishop of St Andrews (1329-1382) created cardinal 23 October 1330 by John XXII, in 1334 papal conclave, he supported Jean-Raymond de Comminges, Bishop of Porto e Santa Rufina, son of Count Bernard VI of Comminges


As for Elizabeth de Burgh, she'll most likely marry a Irish lord, loyal to her father and unknown to history.
 
Alright awesome, I like that tree @Jonathan. A question I have re Isabella of France, is it true that otl Edward I tried to break the engagement between her and his son several times? And if so, might he try and entrap Robert senior here with his granddaughter in return for allowing Robert back to Scotland
 
Alright awesome, I like that tree @Jonathan. A question I have re Isabella of France, is it true that otl Edward I tried to break the engagement between her and his son several times? And if so, might he try and entrap Robert senior here with his granddaughter in return for allowing Robert back to Scotland
From what I have read the OTL story goes like this:
All of Philip's children were married young for political benefit. Isabella was promised in marriage by Philip to Prince Edward of Caernarfon, the infant son and heir of King Edward I of England, with the intention to resolve the conflicts between France and England over the latter's continental possession of Gascony and claims to Anjou, Normandy and Aquitaine.
Pope Boniface VIII had urged the marriage as early as 1298 but was delayed by wrangling over the terms of the marriage contract. Edward I attempted to break the engagement several times for political advantage, and only after he died in 1307 did the wedding proceed.
How would he entrap Robert Sr.? With Robert being married, his granddaughter would not be able to marry him?
 
From what I have read the OTL story goes like this:
All of Philip's children were married young for political benefit. Isabella was promised in marriage by Philip to Prince Edward of Caernarfon, the infant son and heir of King Edward I of England, with the intention to resolve the conflicts between France and England over the latter's continental possession of Gascony and claims to Anjou, Normandy and Aquitaine.
Pope Boniface VIII had urged the marriage as early as 1298 but was delayed by wrangling over the terms of the marriage contract. Edward I attempted to break the engagement several times for political advantage, and only after he died in 1307 did the wedding proceed.
How would he entrap Robert Sr.? With Robert being married, his granddaughter would not be able to marry him?

Hmm interesting, that seems really weird for Edward I and I do wonder who he intended to marry his son to then.

And ah, sorry, I meant that Edward I might try and get his granddaughter to marry Robert junior
 
Hmm interesting, that seems really weird for Edward I and I do wonder who he intended to marry his son to then.
That's my query but no known women were named and I can't see any one that is obvious.

And ah, sorry, I meant that Edward I might try and get his granddaughter to marry Robert junior
Edward I died in 1307, so he wont be able to see the marriage completed, but which granddaughter did you have in mind:

- Eleanor de Clare (3 October 1292-30 June 1337)
- Margaret de Clare (12 October 1293 – 9 April 1342)
- Elizabeth de Clare (16 September 1295 – 4 November 1360)
- Lady Joan of Bar (1295-1361)
- Lady Eleanor de Bohun (17 October 1304 – 1363)
 
That's my query but no known women were named and I can't see any one that is obvious.


Edward I died in 1307, so he wont be able to see the marriage completed, but which granddaughter did you have in mind:

- Eleanor de Clare (3 October 1292-30 June 1337)
- Margaret de Clare (12 October 1293 – 9 April 1342)
- Elizabeth de Clare (16 September 1295 – 4 November 1360)
- Lady Joan of Bar (1295-1361)
- Lady Eleanor de Bohun (17 October 1304 – 1363)

Hmm, I was leaning toward either Elizabeth de Clare, or perhaps Mary de Monthermer, the offspring of his daughter Joan and Ralph de Monthermer perhaps?
 
Mary de Monthermer, the offspring of his daughter Joan and Ralph de Monthermer perhaps?
Mary could work as in 1306 her grandfather King Edward I was the one who arranged for her to marry Duncan Macduff, 8th Earl of Fife.

Elizabeth would be interesting when her only brother Gilbert, 7th Earl of Hertford was killed at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314 aged only 23 and leaving no surviving issue, his property, estimated to be worth £6,000 a year, was equally divided between his three full sisters. Meaning as queen of scotland, she gets £2,000 a year from her share.
 
Mary could work as in 1306 her grandfather King Edward I was the one who arranged for her to marry Duncan Macduff, 8th Earl of Fife.

Elizabeth would be interesting when her only brother Gilbert, 7th Earl of Hertford was killed at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314 aged only 23 and leaving no surviving issue, his property, estimated to be worth £6,000 a year, was equally divided between his three full sisters. Meaning as queen of scotland, she gets £2,000 a year from her share.
Oh I like that she would also bring with her complications as a result of that two grand a year then. I like it. I’m leaning toward The Clare sisters now
 
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