House of Barcelona thrives

krieger

Banned
The last reigning member of Aragonese royal house of Barcelona was Martin I the Humane. Martin had three sons (Martin the Younger, king of Sicily, James and John), but only one of them (Martin the Younger) had survived to adulthood. It led to the interregnum after sonless (at least legitimate) death of Martin the Younger and his father. But what if younger sons of Martin I survived? There wouldn't be any interregnum after Martin's death, because James would immediately become James III after his father's death. Would Martin still strive to legitimize his illegitimate grandson (through Martin the Younger) Frederick, while having two surviving legitimate sons ready to inherit crown? How would lack of House of Trastamara on Aragonese throne affect Iberian history? @Kellan Sullivan @isabella
 
The last reigning member of Aragonese royal house of Barcelona was Martin I the Humane. Martin had three sons (Martin the Younger, king of Sicily, James and John), but only one of them (Martin the Younger) had survived to adulthood. It led to the interregnum after sonless (at least legitimate) death of Martin the Younger and his father. But what if younger sons of Martin I survived? There wouldn't be any interregnum after Martin's death, because James would immediately become James III after his father's death. Would Martin still strive to legitimize his illegitimate grandson (through Martin the Younger) Frederick, while having two surviving legitimate sons ready to inherit crown? How would lack of House of Trastamara on Aragonese throne affect Iberian history? @Kellan Sullivan @isabella

Well, Jaime III MAY have some difficulty in Sicily. Martin the Younger was formerly married to their queen and had the next best claim. So he's sort of the next best thing to a NATIVE Sicilian prince.
Jaime OTOH has presumably remained in Aragon for most of his life and his Sicilian ties are probably a LOT shakier. Not to mention, the Sicilians have accepted a bastard line king (Manfred) before.

If Jaime HASN'T married yet (or HAS but has a reasonably appropriately aged son) then I could see he/his son wedding the widowed Blanca II of Navarre (she was barely out of mourning when Edouard, duke of Bar and Ludwig VIII of Bavaria-Ingolstadt (brother to Queen Isabeau in France) tried their luck to wed her).

Then there is Juana and Yolande of Aragon (Juan I's daughters). Aragon DOESN'T allow female succession (and yet OTL in the Compromise of Caspe it allowed FEMALE-LINE succession to a claimant who was neither the senior nor only heir). Violante of Bar was a forxe to be reckoned with after Juan I died IIRC. A match between Martin Jr and Juana/Yolande may be unlikely though, since Violante still had a son in 1394, Juan died accidentally and Juana was married in 1392), plus Maria I is already 14yo than Juan, 16yo than Jaime, so a switch of marriages seems unlikely.

I recall reading there WAS talk of a match between the daughter of Emperor Rupprecht and Martin Jr. The Aragonese proposed a counter-offer of Martin Sr's half-sister Isabel (OTL countess of Urgel) for Rup's son (Ludwig III who wed Blanche of England instead), but it was rejected. So maybe the emperor's daughter (Elisabeth (b.1381) wed in 1407, while Agnes (b.1379) married in March 1400) goes to Jaime instead?
 

krieger

Banned
Well, Jaime III MAY have some difficulty in Sicily. Martin the Younger was formerly married to their queen and had the next best claim. So he's sort of the next best thing to a NATIVE Sicilian prince.
Jaime OTOH has presumably remained in Aragon for most of his life and his Sicilian ties are probably a LOT shakier. Not to mention, the Sicilians have accepted a bastard line king (Manfred) before.

If Jaime HASN'T married yet (or HAS but has a reasonably appropriately aged son) then I could see he/his son wedding the widowed Blanca II of Navarre (she was barely out of mourning when Edouard, duke of Bar and Ludwig VIII of Bavaria-Ingolstadt (brother to Queen Isabeau in France) tried their luck to wed her).

Then there is Juana and Yolande of Aragon (Juan I's daughters). Aragon DOESN'T allow female succession (and yet OTL in the Compromise of Caspe it allowed FEMALE-LINE succession to a claimant who was neither the senior nor only heir). Violante of Bar was a forxe to be reckoned with after Juan I died IIRC. A match between Martin Jr and Juana/Yolande may be unlikely though, since Violante still had a son in 1394, Juan died accidentally and Juana was married in 1392), plus Maria I is already 14yo than Juan, 16yo than Jaime, so a switch of marriages seems unlikely.

I recall reading there WAS talk of a match between the daughter of Emperor Rupprecht and Martin Jr. The Aragonese proposed a counter-offer of Martin Sr's half-sister Isabel (OTL countess of Urgel) for Rup's son (Ludwig III who wed Blanche of England instead), but it was rejected. So maybe the emperor's daughter (Elisabeth (b.1381) wed in 1407, while Agnes (b.1379) married in March 1400) goes to Jaime instead?

But Sicilians accepted the rule of Fernando of Antequera, who had literally NO ties to Sicily, so I imagine that Jaime III shouldn't have less troubles in claiming Sicily than Ferdinand I had. IOTL, Fadrique wasn't crowned a king of Sicily, despite more reasons for Sicilians to do so. So I imagine that they'd recognize overlordship of Fadrique's uncle. Maybe Fadrique will be made a governor of island in service of his uncle, but this depends on Jaime's III personality and his relationship with Fadrique.
I think that Jaime would marry Joan of Durazzo (OTL Joan II of Naples). She is only 5 years older than Jaime and Charles of Durazzo could seek Aragonese support against French.
 
I think that Jaime would marry Joan of Durazzo (OTL Joan II of Naples). She is only 5 years older than Jaime and Charles of Durazzo could seek Aragonese support against French.

Ladislas tried to get Juana of Aragon (daughter of Juan I and Marthe d'Armagnac) at one point, although the match went nowhere for reasons ICR. @Yanez de Gomera might be helpful here.
As to Giovanna, NO F**KING WAY.

After his widowing, King Martin the Younger originally aimed to marry Giovanna II, Queen of Naples, but his father persuaded him to desist, since she was betrothed to Wilhelm of Austria, prince of Steyr, but also because the Neapolitans, Sicilians and the pope would be against this match.

A Aragonese queen for Ladislas might happen with the right POD. However, in the 1390s his hold on Naples was shaky (the French Angevins had just left in the end of the 1380s IIRC), so he needed the powerful Chiaramonte's support. So it will be after he disposes of wife no. 1 or no longer needs the Chiaramonti. That said, he's not letting an Aragonese match for his sister go through. Why? Naples and Sicily have been at war for over 100 years. Both claim the other one's crown. No way is Ladislas going to have fought to keep Naples against the French, only to have an Aragonese second son acquire it by knocking up his sister. Besides, in the 1390s, when such a match is likely, Giovanna's prospects are too uncertain. By the 1400s, as we know, Giovanna had no children with either husband - so it seems unlikely that the problem lay on either gentleman's end.
 

krieger

Banned
Ladislas tried to get Juana of Aragon (daughter of Juan I and Marthe d'Armagnac) at one point, although the match went nowhere for reasons ICR. @Yanez de Gomera might be helpful here.
As to Giovanna, NO F**KING WAY.

Ok, so no Joanna for Jaime. If the Angevin candidates are out of picture, who would you suggest for Jaime? Agewise, Elizabeth of Palatinate (daughter of emperor Ruprecht) would be ideal for Jaime. Aragonese could offer Ruprecht support in his Italian adventures, so Jaime is IMHO good candidate for Elizabeth's hand.

A Aragonese queen for Ladislas might happen with the right POD. However, in the 1390s his hold on Naples was shaky (the French Angevins had just left in the end of the 1380s IIRC), so he needed the powerful Chiaramonte's support. So it will be after he disposes of wife no. 1 or no longer needs the Chiaramonti. That said, he's not letting an Aragonese match for his sister go through. Why? Naples and Sicily have been at war for over 100 years. Both claim the other one's crown. No way is Ladislas going to have fought to keep Naples against the French, only to have an Aragonese second son acquire it by knocking up his sister. Besides, in the 1390s, when such a match is likely, Giovanna's prospects are too uncertain. By the 1400s, as we know, Giovanna had no children with either husband - so it seems unlikely that the problem lay on either gentleman's end.


I know that Aragonese and Angevin have a lot of bad blood between themselves, but Giovanna didn't hesitate to name Alfonso of Aragon her heir. But if Martin didn't let his first son marry Giovanna, he wouldn't let the second one too. Ladislao also could have been against the match. Both Giovanna and Ladislao didn't have an legitimate issue from any of their marriages, but in Ladislao's case problem definitely didn't lay on his end, because he had a lot of bastards.
 
Agewise, Elizabeth of Palatinate (daughter of emperor Ruprecht)

Yeah, why not. It's a better match for her than her youngest son of an Austrian duke. And if she has her OTL with luck with kids, Jaime can always remarry to his widowed sister-in-law (Blanca II of Navarre).

That said, an Aragonese alliance in Italy for Rupprecht might be interesting. OTL he [Rupprecht] wished to humble the Visconti duke of Milan and be crowned by the pope. Problem was, that as per the death of Robert of Geneva (Antipope Clement VIII), Aragon supported the Avignon papacy (not sure who they backed before that), since the cardinal elected was an Aragonese (Benedict XIII). Oh, and Rupprecht recognized Boniface IX.

I don't see the Martins or Jaime dropping their support for Papa Luna, and in theory, it would be political suicide for Rupprecht to drop Boniface. OTOH, it would also not be unthinkable for Rupprecht to attempt to recognize Benedict in exchange for a papal-imperial coronation (or at least the right as was given later to the Habsburgs that they didn't have to drop in to Rome for one). Boniface's support came from Wenzel of Bohemia and the rest of the house of Luxemburg (but ATM, the Luxemburgs could barely keep their own house in order). The main risk it runs is Boniface declaring Sicily a lapsed fief (I know Sardinia and Ireland were both fiefs of the church, but I'm not sure if Sicily counted as well, since Carlos III of Spain was crowned in Palermo as a way of getting around the fact that Naples was under papal interdict when he succeeded IIRC) and awarding it to the Angiovesi.

Could definitely be interesting

but Giovanna didn't hesitate to name Alfonso of Aragon her heir

Only as a way of keeping her French relatives in line - to show what she might do if they didn't dance to the tune she called - unfortunately, it backfired spectacularly.
 

krieger

Banned
Yeah, why not. It's a better match for her than her youngest son of an Austrian duke. And if she has her OTL with luck with kids, Jaime can always remarry to his widowed sister-in-law (Blanca II of Navarre).

That said, an Aragonese alliance in Italy for Rupprecht might be interesting. OTL he [Rupprecht] wished to humble the Visconti duke of Milan and be crowned by the pope. Problem was, that as per the death of Robert of Geneva (Antipope Clement VIII), Aragon supported the Avignon papacy (not sure who they backed before that), since the cardinal elected was an Aragonese (Benedict XIII). Oh, and Rupprecht recognized Boniface IX.

I don't see the Martins or Jaime dropping their support for Papa Luna, and in theory, it would be political suicide for Rupprecht to drop Boniface. OTOH, it would also not be unthinkable for Rupprecht to attempt to recognize Benedict in exchange for a papal-imperial coronation (or at least the right as was given later to the Habsburgs that they didn't have to drop in to Rome for one). Boniface's support came from Wenzel of Bohemia and the rest of the house of Luxemburg (but ATM, the Luxemburgs could barely keep their own house in order). The main risk it runs is Boniface declaring Sicily a lapsed fief (I know Sardinia and Ireland were both fiefs of the church, but I'm not sure if Sicily counted as well, since Carlos III of Spain was crowned in Palermo as a way of getting around the fact that Naples was under papal interdict when he succeeded IIRC) and awarding it to the Angiovesi.

Could definitely be interesting

I think that ITTL she might have a one or two surviving kids with Jaime, since she was able to conceive, but she died in the childbirth with a daughter.

Rupprecht could switch sides. Boniface has no possibility to harm his possesions and if Benedict (after Aragonese advice) is willing to crown Rupprecht emperor, he wouldn't hesitate. Rupprecht wasn't exactly the most religious person in the Reich. And German princes had little love for Boniface, whose agenda was often against their interests (for example he condemned TO for attacking newly christianized Lithuania and TO's state was the place where younger sons of German nobles had prospects of career), so it wouldn't be suicidal for Rupprecht to suport Benedict, if he agrees to Rupprecht's demands. If Rupprecht is allied to Aragonese, could battle of Brescia have a different outcome? And if Rupprecht won, how would he deal with Viscontis? Would he strive to replace Viscontis with someone more suitable for his ambitions? Boniface could bestow Sicily upon Angiovesi, but Angiovesi would need strength (military) to gain it. They didn't have enough.
 
And if Rupprecht won, how would he deal with Viscontis? Would he strive to replace Viscontis with someone more suitable for his ambitions

I'm not sure whether he'd replace them or simply leave them in place after knocking them down a peg or two (i.e. that the Visconti aren't having any grandiose ideas about uniting northern Italy like OTL)
 

krieger

Banned
I'm not sure whether he'd replace them or simply leave them in place after knocking them down a peg or two (i.e. that the Visconti aren't having any grandiose ideas about uniting northern Italy like OTL)

He could try to make Milan an Wittelsbach hereditary fief.
 
Actually, Maria of Sicily can marry a Palaiologos rather than her cousin and creating less inbreeding in the house of Barcelona, that would be better for Byzantines and Aragon, which would create an alliance between the three countries.
 
Actually, Maria of Sicily can marry a Palaiologos rather than her cousin and creating less inbreeding in the house of Barcelona, that would be better for Byzantines and Aragon, which would create an alliance between the three countries.
Or, lead to a restoration of Byzantine rule in more Greek lands.
 
Actually, Maria of Sicily can marry a Palaiologos rather than her cousin and creating less inbreeding in the house of Barcelona, that would be better for Byzantines and Aragon, which would create an alliance between the three countries.
Or, lead to a restoration of Byzantine rule in more Greek lands.

WTAF would the Aragonese agree to this? They had just spent a fuckton of time and money and blood trying to subdue Sicily, now they need to watch it wave bye-bye? Yeah, not happening for the same reason as Maria isn't marrying a Visconti or a Luxemburg. Only way this scenario is happening is if she isn't heiress presumptive (i.e. Federigo Simplex has a son by one of his later wives, and then said son dies childless, leaving the duchess of Milan/Roman Empress/queen of Bohemia as next heiress. And guess what! The Aragonese are still gonna fight for it.
What help would Constantinople be in terms of an alliance at this point? Just asking? Most likely, Aragon is going to need to send help to Byzantium* not the other way around.
 
WTAF would the Aragonese agree to this? They had just spent a fuckton of time and money and blood trying to subdue Sicily, now they need to watch it wave bye-bye? Yeah, not happening for the same reason as Maria isn't marrying a Visconti or a Luxemburg. Only way this scenario is happening is if she isn't heiress presumptive (i.e. Federigo Simplex has a son by one of his later wives, and then said son dies childless, leaving the duchess of Milan/Roman Empress/queen of Bohemia as next heiress. And guess what! The Aragonese are still gonna fight for it.
What help would Constantinople be in terms of an alliance at this point? Just asking? Most likely, Aragon is going to need to send help to Byzantium* not the other way around.
The claimants to the Kingdom of Majorca are Palaiologos of Montferrat, if they marry her they also get back Majorca.
 
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The claimants to the Kingdom of Majorca are Palaiologos of Montferrat.

And the third husband of Giovanna I of Naples was the king of Majorca. Didn't help him get his kingdom back.
The count of Urgell who claimed the kingdom of Aragon in 1411 had a Palaiologi mother from Monferrato. Again, last I checked they didn't lift a finger to help him get the crown against the "heavyweights" (Castile or Anjou), despite his claim being better than theirs.
 
WTAF would the Aragonese agree to this? They had just spent a fuckton of time and money and blood trying to subdue Sicily, now they need to watch it wave bye-bye? Yeah, not happening for the same reason as Maria isn't marrying a Visconti or a Luxemburg. Only way this scenario is happening is if she isn't heiress presumptive (i.e. Federigo Simplex has a son by one of his later wives, and then said son dies childless, leaving the duchess of Milan/Roman Empress/queen of Bohemia as next heiress. And guess what! The Aragonese are still gonna fight for it.
What help would Constantinople be in terms of an alliance at this point? Just asking? Most likely, Aragon is going to need to send help to Byzantium* not the other way around.
If there's a succession crisis in Aragon that is not settled peacefully as per OTL, the realm could lose peripheral areas. Granted by the 1390s/1410s OTL, the Romans are little more than a joke.
 
And the third husband of Giovanna I of Naples was the king of Majorca. Didn't help him get his kingdom back.
The count of Urgell who claimed the kingdom of Aragon in 1411 had a Palaiologi mother from Monferrato. Again, last I checked they didn't lift a finger to help him get the crown against the "heavyweights" (Castile or Anjou), despite his claim being better than theirs.
I never understood that marriage.
 
First thing that comes to my mind.

No Antequera kings, the conquest of Naples becomes butterflied and the civil war of 1462 too. And the marriage of a certain Isabel with some Aragonese prince... well...

Well, Jaime III MAY have some difficulty in Sicily. Martin the Younger was formerly married to their queen and had the next best claim. So he's sort of the next best thing to a NATIVE Sicilian prince.
Jaime OTOH has presumably remained in Aragon for most of his life and his Sicilian ties are probably a LOT shakier. Not to mention, the Sicilians have accepted a bastard line king (Manfred) before.

After Martin the Younger death, his father, Martin I of Aragon became king of Sicily too. So, after his death, the kingdom goes to Jaime in the same way that went to Ferdinand of Antequera, who had even smaller Sicilian ties.
 
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