Hostages On the High Seas 1940

99.999% sure this hasn't been posted before, how 'bout this for a unique POD?

Background: Throughout WWII, Britain shipped her POWs across the Atlantic to Prisoner of War camps in Canada. In addition to the fear of U-boat attack, there was always a fear that the prison ship's cargo would rise up and seize control of the ship. Though both events were unlikely for different reasons, some interesting possibilities come up when one looks closely.

There was perhaps no greater opportunity for German POWs to seize control of their ship than in June 1940 onboard the first "prison ship" the SS Duchess of York. Now in OTL there were several scares, but nothing came of it, the Duchess of York docked without incident at Quebec and it's prisoners spent the remainder of the war relatively peacefully in Canadian Camps. We do know however that there were hardly enough guards and that those that were assigned were hardly the best Britain had to offer (most spending the voyage bent over the railing disgorging their half digested rations into the sea courtesy of the ship's less than satisfactory performance in rough weather). In fact the situation was so dire that the Nazis had de facto control of the entire ship save for the bridge and engine room. We also know of several attempts to steal the guard's rifles (allegedly foiled by the handful of Jewish prisoners who were mistakenly put in the same group as the rest of the Nazis onboard.)

Now What If: The German attempts to seize the Duchess of York come to fruition. The POWs consisting mostly of airmen, KM personnel, and merchant seamen unlucky enough to be in the UK when WWII started, manage to overpower the guards and seize control of the ship. The British guards and crew who survive the mutiny are taken prisoner and those who have the misfortune of being either Jewish or Anti-Nazi are probably thrown overboard.

Let's also say that the British manage to send out a distress call detailing the ship's position and situation on board.

Here's where my expertise ends. Could anyone help me out?

Questions

-Ok, so they have control of the ship, how to the POW's get back to Nazi controlled Europe? Which route do they take? Do they try to make for neutral Spain instead?

-Are there any German raiders in the region that could possibly help them out?

-What does the RN do? What kind of forces do they send after the ship, knowing that it's now carrying roughly 300 British POWs? Would the Germans be so callous as to use the POWs as hostages to ensure their safe passage home? How would the RN respond?
 

The Vulture

Banned
Hmm, I like this idea. Could be made into a short story as a sort of WWII Die Hard. ;)

I suppose the Royal Navy would tail the Duchess, but they're in a quandary: they can't justify simply blowing the ship out of the water due to the hostages, but at the same time they can't justify launching an elaborate and dangerous rescue mission to rescue some rear-line troops (I suppose it'd be considered part of the risk of guard duty anyways).

I suppose the prisoners, holding the crew at gunpoint, would break for the nearest neutral country, and the Admiralty would negotiate a deal where they allow them to get there as long as they agree to release the hostages on arrival.

Was it carrying enlisted men or officers?
 

The Vulture

Banned
Okay, Churchill was not some magical leader who could headbutt all problems into nothingness before his breakfast of whiskey and pineapple. There would be a very real and serious outcry if he decided to shell a Canadian line ship and kill 300 British soldiers. There would certainly be political fallout, and Churchill was only two months into his term and still trying to consolidate his government and convince the British people that things would improve on his watch. Bad time to casually murder 300 sons, husbands, and brothers.
 
Okay, Churchill was not some magical leader who could headbutt all problems into nothingness before his breakfast of whiskey and pineapple. There would be a very real and serious outcry if he decided to shell a Canadian line ship and kill 300 British soldiers. There would certainly be political fallout, and Churchill was only two months into his term and still trying to consolidate his government and convince the British people that things would improve on his watch. Bad time to casually murder 300 sons, husbands, and brothers.

You dont seem to understand the thinking at the time. This isnt the current thinking that the poor little hostages muct be saved at all costs. This is something that cant be allowed, or it will happen again, and if the soldiers were that incompetant they just have to take their chances.
It would be a straight offer to the prisoners. Surrender amd dont harm the hostages NOW, and we'll just put you in a nice prison camp, or we sink the ship and shoot any of you that survive for mutiny (or whatever else they can make stick).
But that ship is not going anywhere under german control.
 
You dont seem to understand the thinking at the time. This isnt the current thinking that the poor little hostages muct be saved at all costs. This is something that cant be allowed, or it will happen again, and if the soldiers were that incompetant they just have to take their chances.
It would be a straight offer to the prisoners. Surrender amd dont harm the hostages NOW, and we'll just put you in a nice prison camp, or we sink the ship and shoot any of you that survive for mutiny (or whatever else they can make stick).
But that ship is not going anywhere under german control.

This.

The prisoners either surrender when the first british warship shows up or it ends up on the sea floor. Them making it into a neutral harbor are slim to none, making it to a german controlled one is practically nonexistant.
 

Macragge1

Banned
Supposing it does manage to find a neutral port we can't dismiss another Altmark incident - after all, this was a violation of Norway's neutrality. If handled delicately diplomatically (this is our ship with our hostages etc - possibly even a bribe or bribe in kind is offered) Churchill could probably get away with this, but if it gets messy (if it goes down in Cartagena harbour for example instead of an isolated fjord) then he might risk antagonising a neutral like Spain at a time he really doesnt want to be doing such a thing.
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
Forget 21st century morality.

This is mutiny on the high seas.

This is POW's staging an armed uprising - not just trying to escape.

There is no way they are going to be allowed to get away with it. The best the ordinary germans can hope is that the ship surrenders as soon as they encounter the RN. The ringleaders are dead men walking - if they are captured again they will be shot or hung - if guards are not allowed to just shoot prisoners it is because prisoners are not 'allowed' to attack guards.

Hitler and the Nazies might like it - the regular army / airforce / navy are not going to. This is one way of getting Eastern front levels of nastiness in the west as well.
 
Exactly.

The German military will disown the PoWs, completely. Doing otherwise is simply inviting future prisoners to just be be shot, as they can't be trusted to follow he rules of war.

No one wants that.
 
Indeed- said POWs by taking over the ship just made themselves combatants once again, & the ship is legally just like any other enemy ship. The use of violence of any kind by POWs in an attempt to escape is a violation of the laws of war, and not only can the guards perfectly allowed to use deadly force against them, but any who are captured following such an attempt are war criminals who can be dealt with in whatever manner a properly constituted military tribunal feels appropriate up to a death sentence (provided the punishment whatever it is doesn't itself violate international law)
 
They dont need to blow it up. How about just coming in close and smashing the rudder or propeller thereby immobolizing the ship. Eventually they will run out of food. I think a submarine could do it.

Or maybe a heavy battleship could just cozy up next to it and push it.
 
I agree with most of the posters here - if the Brits find out about, the ship is toast.

So, if you're an enterprising German and you don't want to spend the next how ever many years sitting in Canada (actually, given what's gonna happen to Germany in 1944-45, Canada looks pretty good) and you don't want the RN to blow you to the moon, you have to do more than just seize the ship. You have to take it in such a way that the Brits don't know its been taken.

This puts the 'hostage' part of the original post right out, but let's explore a little bit anyway.

You're the German in charge. The uprising goes off without a hitch - the ship is yours. First thing you do is grab the British radio operator. Put a gun to his head, and make him call in every so often to say 'everything's fine here - no problems!'. This presumes several almost ASB-things - that either you (or some other POW) has enough knowledge of RN signals procedures to fake out the RN, and/or that the Brit radio officer is willing/scared enough to cooperate. That last part is even more ASB as the Brits have to know that the Germas will kill them in the end if they (the Germans) succeed.

OK - with those minor miracles behind you, what next? You've got a tramp steamer in the middle of the North Atlantic. Best bet is probably Spain (this presumes you are loyal and wish to rejoin the war for your Fuehrer. If not, Brazil/Argentina might be the way to go). Either way, you rig up a flag that looks like the appropriate nationality, maybe change the name of the ship, and set sail.

Presumbing no random RN/MN/USN patrols find you (and no U-boats mistake you for Allied ship - which, by the way, you are), you make the northwest coast of Spain (or Northeast coast of Brazil). Now what?

Well, option 1 - if you want to rejoin the war, you make the Brit radio operator report that you're under attack by a U-Boat, you kill the Brits, load up ino small boats, sink the ship, and make for the coast. The reason you have to kill the Brits is what the other posters have stated - you're now a pirate, and if the Brits catch you, you're dead. Further, the Germans will have to disavow you - unless you can keep the whole incident from going public.

Once in Spain, you hook up with the German ambassador, let him know - very quietly - what happened. The Germans smuggle you into occupied France, you get a Knight's Cross - again very quietly - and rejoin the war with a promotion, and lots of opportunity to die horribly over the next few years.

Well, Option 2. As Option 1, except after you make it ashore, you and two or three trusted others leave the main group. The majority of the Germans will get picked up, which blows any chance of a cover up, and means the Reich might want you dead as much as the Brits. You strike out for a Brazilian city - maybe hiring a translator on the way. You and your buddies find a few rich houses, and burgle them - murdering the rich residents if need be. You want moveable assets - gold, mostly, maybe with some cash, gems, jewels, and the like.

Then, after you've amassed some wealth, you murder your buddies (two people can keep a secret if one is dead), the translator, and a random European-looking Brazilian. You leave enough evidence to indicate that this random Brazilian is actually you (you shoot him in the face, perhaps), and enough of your ill-gotten gains to make it look convincing. The reason you do this is that (at least) one of the main group of Germans(who WILL be caught) will squeal in hopes of leniency, so the authorities will know how many people are still free.

After that - well, if the authorities buy that the random Brazilian was you - then you're free. Depending on your language skills, you either settle someplace in Brazil, or you take neutral shipping to a neutral country and enjoy the rest of your life.

Mike Turcotte
 

Geon

Donor
The Hague Convention

Greetings Everyone:

I have been a regular visitor to this forum for many years now and have just recently become a formal member. This is my first post so go easy on me.

With regard to whether or not the Duke of York could reach a nuetral port once it was captured I must agree with many of the above posters who say it would be unlikely. Witness the frenzy that ensued following the sinking of the Hood by the Bismarck. The British stripped every naval resource they had to hunt the Bismarck down. A British ship taken over by German prisoners of war would be only marginally less acceptable and there would be a mass manhunt for the ship with orders to stop it at all costs.

However, there is still the chance the ship could reach a nuetral port in South America or either Spain or Portugal. If that were to happen then according to the Hague Convention all of the soldiers/sailors on the ship would be interned for the duration of the war. The p.o.w.s would enjoy much more freedom and have a chance to return to Germany depending on the caginess of their diplomats.

Geon
 
Even assuming for the moment that they reach a neutral port and are interned, they do NOT get freedom. The conventions are quite clear on this point. They are held (quite possibly in another POW camp!) until the end of hostilities.
 

Geon

Donor
Hague Conventions

Even assuming for the moment that they reach a neutral port and are interned, they do NOT get freedom. The conventions are quite clear on this point. They are held (quite possibly in another POW camp!) until the end of hostilities.

I may have been misunderstood here.

The British mercheant men/sailors do get interned as per the Second Hague Convention according to Article II; Section 11 it says.

Art. 11.

A neutral Power which receives on its territory troops belonging to the belligerent armies shall intern them, as far as possible, at a distance from the theatre of war.
It may keep them in camps and even confine them in fortresses or in places set apart for this purpose.
It shall decide whether officers can be left at liberty on giving their parole not to leave the neutral territory without permission.

Prisoners of war however are given some freedoms as specified in article 13 of the same chapter.

Art. 13.

A neutral Power which receives escaped prisoners of war shall leave them at liberty. If it allows them to remain in its territory it may assign them a place of residence.
The same rule applies to prisoners of war brought by troops taking refuge in the territory of a neutral Power.

Both of these are copied from the website: The Avalon Project--http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague05.asp

Note that article 13 says escaped prisoners of war shall be allowed at liberty. I am not saying that they would be free to return home. Only that they would have more liberty then the British sailors/mercheant men of the Duke of York. Although, there is an interesting question. If the Germans do take the ship, and beat the odds by making it to a nuetral port, then who are the real P.O.W.'s, the Germans who mutinied and took the ship or the British who would now technically be the Germans' prisoners?

Geon
 
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