Holy Roman Emperor Charles VI has a son

VVD0D95

Banned
So, I think I might've posted a thread like this before, but I don't think it got much traction. If Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor had a surviving son, say either his son Leopold born in 1716 or a boy born in 1724, instead of Maria Amalia, and if this boy survives into adulthood, one imagines this butterflies the pragmatic sanction. One also imagines this removes the Austrian War of Succession. Does this consequently prevent the diplomatic revolution, and Austria moving to ally with France? Furthermore, without the Austrian War of Succession, does this remove Silesia going to Prussia, and also preventing the loss of Naples and Milan for Austria?
 
I would say that this makes a much stronger Austria than OTL. Silesia and the Italian lands should be held. (You never know- but Austria is more likely to retain these things). As for the French alliance, this changes that. The French are historically anti-Habsburg, and the Habsburg Netherlands on their border will be looking nice.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Okay very interesting.

With Silesia remaining Austrian I suppose Prussia remains much weaker for now.
 
Furthermore, without the Austrian War of Succession, does this remove Silesia going to Prussia...
Not if Frederick II has anything to say about it. He wanted the territory, the Pragmatic Sanction was merely a handy pretext to seize it. If not that he'll find some other excuse to start hostilities to try and annex it in the potential peace negotiations.
 
So, I think I might've posted a thread like this before, but I don't think it got much traction. If Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor had a surviving son, say either his son Leopold born in 1716 or a boy born in 1724, instead of Maria Amalia, and if this boy survives into adulthood, one imagines this butterflies the pragmatic sanction. One also imagines this removes the Austrian War of Succession. Does this consequently prevent the diplomatic revolution, and Austria moving to ally with France? Furthermore, without the Austrian War of Succession, does this remove Silesia going to Prussia, and also preventing the loss of Naples and Milan for Austria?

Milan was never lost and second Naples was lost in the Polish succession war, before Karl VI's death. That being said, the easiest thing would be to have Archduke Leopold live to be Emperor Leopold II. However, the main problem behind the pragmatic succession still remains: Emperor Karl himself. He was hands down the worst Habsburg Emperor, if not the worst Habsburg monarch, to ever reign. He neglected the army, didn't bother to educate his heiress, engaged in several worthless wars that caused more harm to the Monarchy than good and to top it all off spent all his time getting pointless signatures not worth the ink they were signed with instead of strengthening his Empire to withstand the inevitable reneging that would occur at his death. Furthermore, you've merely removed Friedrich the Great's excuse to invade Silesia, not the invasion itself. Friedrich would invent another in due course, if not just outright invade without some kind of cover (which is what he basically did in OTL). In fact the only thing that's for sure butterflied is the reign of Emperor Karl VII: Leopold will definitely be elected King of the Romans before his fathers death, meaning no chance of a Wittelsbach monarchy.

So the real question is what effects does a male heir have on Karl VI's reign? The possibilities that exist are fairly great but again the issue is whether or not the Emperor will embrace them. For example, if the Emperor focuses his TTL energies on building up the army and filling the treasury, then Friedrich the Great might not be willing to make such a gamble and try for Silesia. Hell a strong army could also butterfly Austrian loses in the Polish succession war and/or the 1735-39 Turkish war. That would potentially leave the Habsburgs with Silesia, Wallachia, Northern Bosnia, Serbia and the Two Sicilies. It also opens the door on the Parmese and Tuscan succession: OTL Karl was very much opposed to the succession of Infante Carlos and sent troops into Northern Italy to block Spain form garrisoning the territories, opening the Italian theatre of the Polish succession war. Thus the potential exists for Italy to fall in its near entirety to the Habsburg Dynasty. I'm not saying that this will happen or its likely, but the possibility would be in play.

A second example is the Ostend Company. OTL it was the Austrian Imperial answer to the British, French and Dutch East India companies and in the decade or so that it existed the company provided strong competition for the traditional colonial trading companies, notably in the lucrative tea trade with China. However, it was suspended and then disbanded by the Emperor as the British price for recognizing the Pragmatic succession. TTL, with no reason to bow to British demands, the Company could and should continue to exist, opening up the possibility of an Austrian presence in the East Indies and India (specifically Bengal and Carnatic, where the Ostend Company establish factories OTL). Now this doesn't mean we could see an Austrian India or an Austrian East Indies but at the least it expands Imperial influence in the East and could mean an economic revival for the Southern Netherlands.

A final example is the Holy Roman Empire itself. First, most don't realize that the Empire was actually in a very strong position during the reign of Emperor Josef I and much of the reign of Karl VI. Second, before the rise of Prussia there was no state within the Empire that could challenge Austrian dominance. So, if Friedrich the Great is contained in Brandenburg-Prussia, then there's a remote possibility that the Empire could transform into a federal nation-state on the model of the later German Empire. From my research it seems as though the Empire between the Treaties of Westphalia and Aix-la-Chapelle was slowly heading towards such a thing within the scope of the Imperial constitution. It was only after Friedrich steamrolled over the traditional hierarchy and institutions that the decline truly began and accelerated. Imagine a TTL Emperor Josef II without Prussian opposition. We could see Austria take control of Bavaria, begin to secularize the Ecclesiastical states, create new imperial institutions based on the ones in the Monarchy and much more. But all of this depends on Leopold II inheriting a strong realm than Maria Theresa did.

I would say that this makes a much stronger Austria than OTL. Silesia and the Italian lands should be held. (You never know- but Austria is more likely to retain these things). As for the French alliance, this changes that. The French are historically anti-Habsburg, and the Habsburg Netherlands on their border will be looking nice.

With a POD in 1716 its highly unlikely that the events that necessitated the OTL Diplomatic revolution would still occur. However, that doesn't mean that a reorientation of alliances wouldn't happen eventually. Also, considering that OTL Louis XV returned the Austrian Netherlands after conquering it in its entirety, don't think any TTL conquest would stick.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Very valid points there Constantine. So, I suppose having a son, or perhaps two sons might well make Charles more focused on giving them the better Austrian realm, than trying to get signatures from people who never intended to keep them. A stronger military would definitely be good to see, and as you say if it improves the Austrian's chances in Italy and the Polish War of Succession over all, then I am all for it. Austrian presence in the East would be fascinating and could shift certain elements especially in Bengal, and the motherland of it all Assam as well.

A federated Empire would be fascinating, would them keeping Silesia etc, really push Prussia back a fair bit and keep it more of a second rate state?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
In regards to the son, would it be better for Leopold to survive, or for Charles to have a son born later on?
 
I think that having Karl keeping the treasury stocked and the army strong implies him listening to Eugene of Savoy (which he didn't OTL), since Eugene told him, repeatedly, that the Pragmatic Sanction was a waste of time/treasure OTL. However, Karl didn't have the same relationship with Eugene that Eugene had had with Josef, and so (unfortunately) thought that he knew best. But it was also a case of he doesn't seem to have had the best ministers, since one of his directives to Maria Theresia as he lay dying, was that she must retain all his ministers as were, and she herself later called them a bunch of dithering fools that she had only accepted advice from since she herself had (in 1740) known no better.

I agree with Constantine that Karl VI was a crowned court jester. His wife, OTOH was a reasonably competent ruler (guess which one MT took after) as evinced by her time serving as regent for her husband in Barcelona in the 1710s. With a surviving son (or two) the Empress' influence over her husband is likely to be stronger than OTL, which means she might have more of a say in state affairs. And if she can persuade her husband to appoint reasonably competent ministers (she's more like her mother/sister-in-law TTL), he can be an idiot from his coronation to his funeral (maybe even take over the education of her son(s)) and the empire can still be inreasonably good shape at his death.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I think that having Karl keeping the treasury stocked and the army strong implies him listening to Eugene of Savoy (which he didn't OTL), since Eugene told him, repeatedly, that the Pragmatic Sanction was a waste of time/treasure OTL. However, Karl didn't have the same relationship with Eugene that Eugene had had with Josef, and so (unfortunately) thought that he knew best. But it was also a case of he doesn't seem to have had the best ministers, since one of his directives to Maria Theresia as he lay dying, was that she must retain all his ministers as were, and she herself later called them a bunch of dithering fools that she had only accepted advice from since she herself had (in 1740) known no better.

I agree with Constantine that Karl VI was a crowned court jester. His wife, OTOH was a reasonably competent ruler (guess which one MT took after) as evinced by her time serving as regent for her husband in Barcelona in the 1710s. With a surviving son (or two) the Empress' influence over her husband is likely to be stronger than OTL, which means she might have more of a say in state affairs. And if she can persuade her husband to appoint reasonably competent ministers (she's more like her mother/sister-in-law TTL), he can be an idiot from his coronation to his funeral (maybe even take over the education of her son(s)) and the empire can still be inreasonably good shape at his death.

Alright very interesting. So, I suppose in order to prevent things going pear shaped, her having two sons would be the sensible option, so as to ensure that Karl would feel more inclined to listen to her, rather than simply go about his own merry way.
 
Alright very interesting. So, I suppose in order to prevent things going pear shaped, her having two sons would be the sensible option, so as to ensure that Karl would feel more inclined to listen to her, rather than simply go about his own merry way.

I get the idea it would take more than that. Karl seems OTL to have followed his own head regardless. Not sure having a son(s) is going to change that too much
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I get the idea it would take more than that. Karl seems OTL to have followed his own head regardless. Not sure having a son(s) is going to change that too much

Very true. I wonder, would him witnessing first hand just how poorly Austria is doing in terms of development shock him into making a change? Or would that be too easy a get out card?
 
Worst Habsburg ruler.
220px-Rey_Carlos_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a.jpg
 
Very true. I wonder, would him witnessing first hand just how poorly Austria is doing in terms of development shock him into making a change? Or would that be too easy a get out card?

Really hard to say. Nothing in Karl's OTL reign suggested that he would be willing to change and confronting him with failures is likely to make him double down and blame advisors instead of taking responsibility.

That said Empress Elisabeth could be a good avenue to start with. OTL he seemed to care greatly for her and she did exercise some influence initially, losing her husband's confidence with her failure to produce an heir. So a son would likely boost her influence and position as mother of the dynasty. Two sons would clench it but might not be necessary. If she could use her influence to favor competent ministers you might have a chance to salvage Karl's reign.

One other thing to consider is choice of brides for the Archduke. My research shows a lack of ranking Princesses that are close in age to Leopold; the best two I can find are Princess Anne Charlotte of Lorraine (17 May 1714), OTL Abbess of Remiremont, Mons and Essen and youngest sister of Emperor Francois I and the Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (31 March 1718). After that it would go to Protestant Germans willing to Convert to Catholicism.

Worst Habsburg ruler.
220px-Rey_Carlos_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a.jpg

Carlos II was physically and mentally handicapped, barely able to reign let alone rule. So I have a hard time counting him as the worst monarch for that reason. Karl VI had no mental issues; he was just arrogant and stupid.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Really hard to say. Nothing in Karl's OTL reign suggested that he would be willing to change and confronting him with failures is likely to make him double down and blame advisors instead of taking responsibility.

That said Empress Elisabeth could be a good avenue to start with. OTL he seemed to care greatly for her and she did exercise some influence initially, losing her husband's confidence with her failure to produce an heir. So a son would likely boost her influence and position as mother of the dynasty. Two sons would clench it but might not be necessary. If she could use her influence to favor competent ministers you might have a chance to salvage Karl's reign.

One other thing to consider is choice of brides for the Archduke. My research shows a lack of ranking Princesses that are close in age to Leopold; the best two I can find are Princess Anne Charlotte of Lorraine (17 May 1714), OTL Abbess of Remiremont, Mons and Essen and youngest sister of Emperor Francois I and the Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (31 March 1718). After that it would go to Protestant Germans willing to Convert to Catholicism.



Carlos II was physically and mentally handicapped, barely able to reign let alone rule. So I have a hard time counting him as the worst monarch for that reason. Karl VI had no mental issues; he was just arrogant and stupid.

Alright, so let's say she has two sons, Archduke Leopold born in 1716, and Archduke Charles born in 1724. For Leopold I do think a marriage to Mariana Victoria would be good. And seeing Charles listen slightly more to his wife in regards to competent ministers would be good, this could also help the case of Eugene of Savoy as well.
 
Really hard to say. Nothing in Karl's OTL reign suggested that he would be willing to change and confronting him with failures is likely to make him double down and blame advisors instead of taking responsibility.

That said Empress Elisabeth could be a good avenue to start with. OTL he seemed to care greatly for her and she did exercise some influence initially, losing her husband's confidence with her failure to produce an heir. So a son would likely boost her influence and position as mother of the dynasty. Two sons would clench it but might not be necessary. If she could use her influence to favor competent ministers you might have a chance to salvage Karl's reign.

One other thing to consider is choice of brides for the Archduke. My research shows a lack of ranking Princesses that are close in age to Leopold; the best two I can find are Princess Anne Charlotte of Lorraine (17 May 1714), OTL Abbess of Remiremont, Mons and Essen and youngest sister of Emperor Francois I and the Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (31 March 1718). After that it would go to Protestant Germans willing to Convert to Catholicism.



Carlos II was physically and mentally handicapped, barely able to reign let alone rule. So I have a hard time counting him as the worst monarch for that reason. Karl VI had no mental issues; he was just arrogant and stupid.

Anna Maria of Honhenzollern-Sigmarigen may be a good candidate, granted her house was raised to imperial princes status in 1692 per Wikipedia. But it'd give some fresh blood and another more direct link to the house of Brandenburg. Plus they're already Catholic, no conversion necessary.

Or a generation younger one of her nieces earliest surviving Maria Johanna born 1726
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Anna Maria of Honhenzollern-Sigmarigen may be a good candidate, granted her house was raised to imperial princes status in 1692 per Wikipedia. But it'd give some fresh blood and another more direct link to the house of Brandenburg. Plus they're already Catholic, no conversion necessary.

Hmm this is true, and would make for a very interesting arrangement.
 
Alright, so let's say she has two sons, Archduke Leopold born in 1716, and Archduke Charles born in 1724. For Leopold I do think a marriage to Mariana Victoria would be good. And seeing Charles listen slightly more to his wife in regards to competent ministers would be good, this could also help the case of Eugene of Savoy as well.

I agree, a marriage with Infanta Mariana Victoria of Bourbon Spain would also bring a symbolic value to such a match, since it brings together the houses of the successor and the pretender of Habsburg Spain.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I agree, a marriage with Infanta Mariana Victoria of Bourbon Spain would also bring a symbolic value to such a match, since it brings together the houses of the successor and the pretender of Habsburg Spain.
Definitely which adds some nice value to things. And could serve as a middle finger to Louis xv
 
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