Holmgard Union?

[Magnificate]

On my recent map there was a country called „Holmgard Union” encompassing Sweden, northern Russia, northern Norway, Finland and Estonia.

Is this kind of Sweden – Novgorod union possible? Were there any significant dynastic intermarriages between these nations? Does any of these countries have enough resources to conquer and maintain the other one? In short: what would be the most suitable POD?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

On my recent map there was a country called „Holmgard Union” encompassing Sweden, northern Russia, northern Norway, Finland and Estonia.

Huh, don't remember that one.

Is this kind of Sweden – Novgorod union possible?

Probably.

Were there any significant dynastic intermarriages between these nations?

Dynastic marriages involving a republic? Or as close to a republic as Russia had until recently.

Does any of these countries have enough resources to conquer and maintain the other one?

In OTL Novgorod faced pressure from Sweden, Poland, Muscovy and (I think) Keiv. It's got enough problems. Maybe a Varangian settlement in that area, concentrated and thriving, could be absorbed by Sweden later on, going for bits of Novgorod as well.

In short: what would be the most suitable POD?

Have Poland go for Baltic supremacy, giving the Swedes and Novgorod a common enemy. Possible? No idea. Sound good? Well, it did to me...

Eventually you're going to have to deal with languages. Would one die out, would they merge? Also religion could be a problem eventually.

 

[HueyLong]

Sweden tried to push leaders on to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the Novgorod Republic was similiar, as a noble's Republic.

So, marrying a Swedish princess into the noble families would not be that hard, nor would getting the electors to vote Swedish be all that hard.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Sweden tried to push leaders on to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the Novgorod Republic was similiar, as a noble's Republic.

So, marrying a Swedish princess into the noble families would not be that hard, nor would getting the electors to vote Swedish be all that hard.

It would be a lot easier with kingdoms. Cuts out the red tape.

 

[Nicole]

Hm, this would have some odd linguistics problems... you have Swedes on one side, Russians on the other (would Novgorod evolve it's own East Slavic language if it stayed separate from Muscovy?) and in the middle are Finns... (Though the Finns aren't important as all the upper classes spoke Swedish).

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Not to mention the Uralic peoples and the Estonians. Seems like you'd get a medieval Belgium. You'd need a road system and a central capital(St. Petersburg? Helsinki?) to mesh the languages.

 

[Magnificate]

Huh, don't remember that one.

Here it is: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=700689&postcount=5344.

In OTL Novgorod faced pressure from Sweden, Poland, Muscovy and (I think) Keiv. It's got enough problems. Maybe a Varangian settlement in that area, concentrated and thriving, could be absorbed by Sweden later on, going for bits of Novgorod as well.

Where would that settlerment be? At OTL Estonia?

Have Poland go for Baltic supremacy, giving the Swedes and Novgorod a common enemy. Possible? No idea. Sound good? Well, it did to me...

The exact timing of this scenario is a problem. Poland can't really compeate in the Baltic before dealing with the Teutonic Knights (that is late XV century). At this point Novogorod is nearly dead.

Eventually you're going to have to deal with languages. Would one die out, would they merge? Also religion could be a problem eventually.

I tend to think that the first language to change due to Holmgard Union would be Finnish. It could later be a bridge linking swedish and russian. As for religion: orthodox scandivia seems probable.

nor would getting the electors to vote Swedish be all that hard.

Well, bribing half a veche would be hard - but as example of Poland sadly shows, not impossible. But I don't know whether non-Novgorodians could "candidate" for Posadnik at all.

 

[Nicole]

I tend to think that the first language to change due to Holmgard Union would be Finnish. It could later be a bridge linking swedish and russian. As for religion: orthodox scandivia seems probable.

Finnish tended to be an underclass language in Swedish Finland though... Everyone of consequence spoke Sweden for that purpose. Finnish was the majority language, but it was a language of peasants, who probably won't be affected much at first. I don't know the status of Finnish/Karelian in Novgorod's territories, though.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Here it is: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=700689&postcount=5344.

Oh, thought you said an old map. Muscovy seems to have fallen.

Where would that settlerment be? At OTL Estonia?

Or possibly southern Finland, maybe in modern Russia.

The exact timing of this scenario is a problem. Poland can't really compeate in the Baltic before dealing with the Teutonic Knights (that is late XV century). At this point Novogorod is nearly dead.

Forgot about the Knights.

I tend to think that the first language to change due to Holmgard Union would be Finnish. It could later be a bridge linking swedish and russian.

Since Finnish isn't related to Swedish or Russian, doubtful.

As for religion: orthodox scandivia seems probable.

I'm not really knowledgable in that area. Come Reformation time, creating a language would be possible.

 

[Max Sinister]

Problem for a longer-lasting union: The Russians are orthodox, everyone else isn't...

 

[Nicole]

Problem for a longer-lasting union: The Russians are orthodox, everyone else isn't...

Perhaps they could go Uniate?

 

[htgriffin]

Problem for a longer-lasting union: The Russians are orthodox, everyone else isn't...

Not yet at least.



HTG

 

[arctic warrior]

On my recent map there was a country called „Holmgard Union” encompassing Sweden, northern Russia, northern Norway, Finland and Estonia.

Is this kind of Sweden – Novgorod union possible? Were there any significant dynastic intermarriages between these nations? Does any of these countries have enough resources to conquer and maintain the other one? In short: what would be the most suitable POD?

It could be with a POD before 1000 in the 8th or 9th century, when Eastern Orthodox were possibly, as well as arian christianity, gaining a foothold in Scandinavia. Byzantine influenze have been discovered in VestGötaland, between the great lakes of Sweden. The Rurikides could then have been of EO confession and you wouldn't have any religious differences - as perhaps was indeed the case OTL????

 

[arctic warrior]

You'd need a road system and a central capital(St. Petersburg? Helsinki?) to mesh the languages.

Why would you need a road system? Don't think conservative - there were other empires than the roman and inca. The Kievian didn't depend on roads and neither would this one. You'd have the waterways interconnecting BOTH in sailable and frost times!!! In winter the waterways were frozen highways!!!

 

[Redbeard]

Northern Norway is unlikely, as that part of the world then was far more accessible from the sea than from Sweden.

Finland and Ingermansland (The area east of OTL Estonia) were already OTL Swedish for some time, and Estonia is culturally and lingustic closely linked to Finland, so if Finland, why not Estonia. Need some lucky clashes with the Teutonic Knights I guess, after having aquired the area from the King of Denmark.

If Northern Russia means including parts that already in medieval times was densely populated by Russian Orthodox I will say it is impossible. I'm not enough into Russian historical demographics to say where the "border of possibility" is, but the Orthodox need to be a minority and the main Swedish/Finnish culture need to be obviously thriwing, incl. a population surplus.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[Lejonmod]

Swedish trops did take Novgorod 1609 and 1611.
1611 did the city recognize swedish rule and offer Gustav II Adolf the Tsarcrown.
Mybe you should work from here, with a second state of Novgorod