Holding Crete

Failure in Crete (assuming falls apart quickly) gives the Germans a little less than 3 months before Barbarossa to consider their options... Taking Malta at that point in early or even mid 1941 would actually be easier than Crete and the island was less well defended... attacking Turkey would have to be a massive operation, canceling Barbarossa (I would be of the opinion, you would need at least two infantry armies and a panzer army, plus significant air assets to beat them down)... barring a political collapse, it would take the Germans probably the entire summer to militarily smash Turkey and achieve their objectives, they could advance down the eastern shore of the med in a pincer move with Rommel (British resistance in this time of scenario could be overcome) the big question would be would Stalin see an attack on Turkey as an act of war against him...

I don't know how much credability the Luftwaffe would have after a failed crete... they lost the battle of Britain, and Crete was an entirely Luftwaffe operation (the fallschrimjaeger where under LW command)... I don't think Goering would get sacked (Hitler never fired him till the bitter end despite near total incompetance) but he could be seriously uninclined to listen to him anymore and seek other alternatives

Taking Malta would be easier than Creete, yeah, right.....
Written by someone who has never seen the island, I will lay odds.
Anyone who even contemplates landing on Malta by air is a certified lunatic - you cant land gliders, and even airdroping would lead to hude numbers of troop injuries. The place is basically a giant rock garden split into lots of little rock gardens by these big rock walls.....

Oh, and it also has serious defences around the only good place to land by sea, the harbour (rest of the island - basically vertical rock walls, with a few coves that dont really ead anywhere)
 

Moglwi

Monthly Donor
I am not sure Brailwitch how the Germans would reatack Crete if the may invasion failed. They have lost the Paras and the reason the seaborne portion of the invasion did not happen is still valid Royal Navy control the seas even with luftwaffe on Greece.
 
I am not sure Brailwitch how the Germans would reatack Crete if the may invasion failed. They have lost the Paras and the reason the seaborne portion of the invasion did not happen is still valid Royal Navy control the seas even with luftwaffe on Greece.

All of the ports on Crete that are of any value are on the north side of the island... The Royal Navy would be extremely hard pressed to keep up the tempo of operations and patrols needed to insure a major seaborne landing wasn't attempted (most of the 5th mountain division was in reserve for just this task, and there where other good field regiments available to be committed including the Leibstandarte)

One of the main reasons the British withdrew from Crete, besides the paratroops pressing them, was the severe difficulty of supplying the island in the face of the pervasive LW presence... even if the airborne are defeated, that problem doesn't go away.... having to steam around the island to land supplies on its north face, means running the guantlet of daylight bombing, and the med fleet didn't have the assets to keep up that kind of sustained risky patrol schedule for any sustained period of time in 1941 before they would begin to struggle or consider evacuating the island
 
Taking Malta would be easier than Creete, yeah, right.....
Written by someone who has never seen the island, I will lay odds.
Anyone who even contemplates landing on Malta by air is a certified lunatic - you cant land gliders, and even airdroping would lead to hude numbers of troop injuries. The place is basically a giant rock garden split into lots of little rock gardens by these big rock walls.....

Oh, and it also has serious defences around the only good place to land by sea, the harbour (rest of the island - basically vertical rock walls, with a few coves that dont really ead anywhere)


Sigh... one must correct this foolishness

The Germans had a complete, total and accurate mapping of Malta and knew where the flat areas where southeast of Grand Harbor... their planning for the operation (which was totally completed; all it needed was a go signal from high command) never planned to land at Valetta harbor with its known, fixed defenses and coastal guns, they had planned the whole time to land on the southern shore and the northern side, where most of the guns where, would have only been given feints... several battlewagons where alotted for the task and would operate comfortably within their own air cover... the garison at its high point might have had 10 tanks, and been utterly blanketed by the LW... perhaps a bloody struggle, but a hopeless struggle in 1941 or even early 1942
 
Failure in Crete (assuming falls apart quickly) gives the Germans a little less than 3 months before Barbarossa to consider their options...

The battle of Crete was 20. May 1941-01. June 1941.
Barbarossa started on 22. June 1941

That's 3-4 weeks time between these 2 operations. Not 3 months. There's no time for the Germans to do ANYTHING after failing in Crete, if they still want to launch Barbarossa on schedule.
 

Bearcat

Banned
The battle of Crete was 20. May 1941-01. June 1941.
Barbarossa started on 22. June 1941

That's 3-4 weeks time between these 2 operations. Not 3 months. There's no time for the Germans to do ANYTHING after failing in Crete, if they still want to launch Barbarossa on schedule.

Most of the units are already in the east or going there. the attack has tremendous logistical inertia - Hitler can't call it off now without the chance that Stalin clues in and makes it impossible later.'

In Adolph's mind, the war at sea is mysterious and slightly disturbing. He is a land guy. He is appalled by his losses, but does not fully comprehend the strategic import. In any event, Crete was a side show to him, Barbarossa is the Main Course, it's Everything He Has Planned Towards, Lebensraum, etc., etc., etc.

Adolph goes east.
 
Yes one must correct this foolishness.

Sigh... one must correct this foolishness

several battlewagons where alotted for the task and would operate comfortably within their own air cover

Who's battleships? The Regia Marina only had 3 or 4 operational at this time, see Taranto, raid on. If they were sortied the RN and RAF would have been on them like flies on cow patties. Also any uptick in operations against Malta would have tipped the British off about it, besides the folks at Bletchy Park knowing about it.

Thank you
jlckansas
 
Who's battleships? The Regia Marina only had 3 or 4 operational at this time, see Taranto, raid on. If they were sortied the RN and RAF would have been on them like flies on cow patties. Also any uptick in operations against Malta would have tipped the British off about it, besides the folks at Bletchy Park knowing about it.

Thank you
jlckansas

The wiki page on operation herkules provides the details of ships allocated to the taskforce (albeit, what is available would depend on the date selected).... the RAF can't do anything to Taranto in 1941... Malta wasn't a base for serious bombers at that point. And the axis can establish air superiority over Malta rather quickly as operational needs require in 1941

And your dead wrong about Bletchly Park picking up on it. The Italian military cipher system used one time pads which where completely unbreakable (and in fact never broken by the British) Tom Clancy's Red Rabbit has an excellent discription of the workings of this type of system
 
Most of the units are already in the east or going there. the attack has tremendous logistical inertia - Hitler can't call it off now without the chance that Stalin clues in and makes it impossible later.'

In Adolph's mind, the war at sea is mysterious and slightly disturbing. He is a land guy. He is appalled by his losses, but does not fully comprehend the strategic import. In any event, Crete was a side show to him, Barbarossa is the Main Course, it's Everything He Has Planned Towards, Lebensraum, etc., etc., etc.

Adolph goes east.


Sorry I had mixed up the dates of Marietta and Mercury... Hitler can still cancel or postpone Barbarossa... if Crete is going to fail... it fails within a couple days... any prolonged German presence on the island ends up in victory due to the air situation... so if the British are going to win its within a week.

Hitler had a history of postponing operations, days hell sometimes hours before jump off (Fall Weiss and Zitadelle illustrated this quite clearly) so if he gets revenge happy on the British or has a hissy fit not only is it possible for him to postpone the operation to work on something else, but its actually within his character to do so... and if it screws his strategic position against Russia to take revenge on the British, that doesn't mean he wouldn't do it... logic and Hitler where not often stablemates afterall
 
Not taking Crete is IMHO a rather small setback for the Germans, one that wozld NOT be enough for Hitler to postpine Barbarossa. As I stated before, Goering would probably pledge to keep bombers attacking Crete during Barbarossa with the paratrooper force being rebuilt.
Some will also argue that after the capture of Suez, the British will have to evacuate Crete anyway, so that should not he an problem.
 
Who's battleships? The Regia Marina only had 3 or 4 operational at this time, see Taranto, raid on. If they were sortied the RN and RAF would have been on them like flies on cow patties. Also any uptick in operations against Malta would have tipped the British off about it, besides the folks at Bletchy Park knowing about it.

Thank you
jlckansas

They will be Rommels magic battleships, of course!!! :p

I'm afraid BW has a rather..idiosyncratic..view of logistics and availability (indeed, sometimes existence) of axis forces in WW2....:rolleyes:
 
The wiki page on operation herkules provides the details of ships allocated to the taskforce (albeit, what is available would depend on the date selected).... the RAF can't do anything to Taranto in 1941... Malta wasn't a base for serious bombers at that point. And the axis can establish air superiority over Malta rather quickly as operational needs require in 1941

And your dead wrong about Bletchly Park picking up on it. The Italian military cipher system used one time pads which where completely unbreakable (and in fact never broken by the British) Tom Clancy's Red Rabbit has an excellent discription of the workings of this type of system

First the Taranto raid was on Novermber 11 and 12th 1940 and put all but 3 BBs out of commission for half of 1941 or longer. It forced the Regia Marina to reabase their fleet to Naples and ports further north in Italy. This would have put the sortie by them for the operation earlier than if they would have been based in Taranto harbor. The Italian Navy did not want to meet the RN in a fight after Cape Matapan in March of 41. Also the Air Force and Navy were not exactly doing much interoperabilty with each other.
Herkules was schedualed in 1942 which would be a bit after this date and included German Fallschirmjager units which were basically units that fought in Crete and had been brought back up to strength. Also the air units for Herkules did not all exist at this time, like the Me 323 glider/HE111Z tow plane combination. With the gains in the western desert/libya and Crete by the UK they would be in a better position to reinforce Malta from the east if they thought it would be invaded.


As for Bletchly Park, this was not going to be an Italian only affair and the German Luftwaffe and Wherhmact were going to be heavily involved in this so the German codes would be read.



JLCKANSAS
 

Markus

Banned
All of the ports on Crete that are of any value are on the north side of the island... The Royal Navy would be extremely hard pressed to keep up the tempo of operations and patrols needed to insure a major seaborne landing wasn't attempted (most of the 5th mountain division was in reserve for just this task, and there where other good field regiments available to be committed including the Leibstandarte)

All the RN needs to do is keep a TF or two south of Crete in readyness. Egypt isn´t that far away. In case an invasion fleet of fishing trawlers and sailing ships crawls towards Crete -THX to Ultra the RN will know- it would be dealt with like the ones before.



One of the main reasons the British withdrew from Crete, besides the paratroops pressing them, was the severe difficulty of supplying the island in the face of the pervasive LW presence... even if the airborne are defeated, that problem doesn't go away.... having to steam around the island to land supplies on its north face, means running the guantlet of daylight bombing, and the med fleet didn't have the assets to keep up that kind of sustained risky patrol schedule for any sustained period of time in 1941 before they would begin to struggle or consider evacuating the island

How often do we need to remind you the LW was going to be send to the Easten Front in a matter of weeks?

The Germans had one shot at Crete. If it hadn´t worked they could have only gotten another one by cancelling/delaying Barbarossa.
 
The Germans had one shot at Crete. If it hadn´t worked they could have only gotten another one by cancelling/delaying Barbarossa.
And only after rebuilding their paratroopers.
A pure sea-invasion of Crete would be dealt with by the Royal Navy (yes, the RN would face losses from the Luftwaffe, but they could still simply concentrate on night actions against the German invasion fleets with destroyers, retreating south of Crete during the day).

Furthermore, the Luftwaffe is a useful tool, but in 1941 the infrastructure in Greece did not allow for the basing, reequipping and fueling of unlimited numbers of German aircraft. Greece lacked a large number of modern airfields, thus the total number of Luftwaffe aircraft able to operate from Greece is limited.
 
And your dead wrong about Bletchly Park picking up on it. The Italian military cipher system used one time pads which where completely unbreakable (and in fact never broken by the British) Tom Clancy's Red Rabbit has an excellent discription of the workings of this type of system

Even though they had some excellent units and very brave men by mid 1941 the Italian armed forces couldn't have captured a back street brothel without German help, and Bletchley Park would have read the German dispatches. Italy's best units had been routed by O Conner at the begining of the year and what was left had serious moral problems. It was only the Africa Corps suprising the Western Desert Force as they paused to build up supplies that kept the British from taking the whole of Libya. With the troops released by not needing to attack Syria Rommel could be pushed back from Tobruk sooner, and without the legend of the Desert Fox to use for propaganda the Germans are unlikley to be willing to support further offensives in the desert. The most Rommel would be able to do is dig in and hope that Russia fall quickly.

With Crete in allied hands Axis positions in the Greek islands would rapidly become untenable, and as Crete is large enough to provide much of its own food it would be much easier to resupply the Malta.
 
And only after rebuilding their paratroopers.
A pure sea-invasion of Crete would be dealt with by the Royal Navy (yes, the RN would face losses from the Luftwaffe, but they could still simply concentrate on night actions against the German invasion fleets with destroyers, retreating south of Crete during the day).

Furthermore, the Luftwaffe is a useful tool, but in 1941 the infrastructure in Greece did not allow for the basing, reequipping and fueling of unlimited numbers of German aircraft. Greece lacked a large number of modern airfields, thus the total number of Luftwaffe aircraft able to operate from Greece is limited.

Operation Mercury was supported by more than 1000 aircraft... there where enough fields where the Germans kept up a very high degree of pressure and where able to make the area dangerous for the Royal Navy (on top of providing good close air support to the ground troopers), and the LW was able to apply enough pressure to convince the British they couldn't supply the island, and that it was too dangerous for their ships to operate around it let alone be based on it

This is the problem with the fan boys... they say ok POD the British win on Crete (ok certainly possible was a close run battle) but then they assume the Germans will just accept their defeat (which isn't in Hitler's character) put their heads down, leave them alone within bomber range of Ploesti (which Hitler was insanely paranoid about) and go about their merry invasion of Russia without taking any other action or considering any possible alternatives, to return the favor for their defeat... they are also handwaiving garisoning the island (and I allowed for them to have a smaller one than the Germans had), feeding the population, feeding the troops, provding, fuel parts and weapons to the island, and having to take sides in the civil war... all at a time when the 8th army was extremely hardpressed
 
Even though they had some excellent units and very brave men by mid 1941 the Italian armed forces couldn't have captured a back street brothel without German help, and Bletchley Park would have read the German dispatches. Italy's best units had been routed by O Conner at the begining of the year and what was left had serious moral problems. It was only the Africa Corps suprising the Western Desert Force as they paused to build up supplies that kept the British from taking the whole of Libya. With the troops released by not needing to attack Syria Rommel could be pushed back from Tobruk sooner, and without the legend of the Desert Fox to use for propaganda the Germans are unlikley to be willing to support further offensives in the desert. The most Rommel would be able to do is dig in and hope that Russia fall quickly.

With Crete in allied hands Axis positions in the Greek islands would rapidly become untenable, and as Crete is large enough to provide much of its own food it would be much easier to resupply the Malta.


Italy's best units where sitting in Albania and Greece (where Benny had ordered them into an attack into terrible god awful terrain... not dissimlar to his wasting of troops in the alps against France) (they had a nucleus of troops who had some combat experience... the troops in Libya where desperately short of seasoned officers at that point)

Rommel's first offensive wasn't an only German affair... the 5th light division, whilst doing a lot of the heavy lifting, and achieving spectacular gains, was supported and their offensive only made possible by the assistance of Italian formations. The Brescia and Piave divisions held the British in place whilst Rommel moved around their flanks... the 5th light advanced hand in hand with the Ariete armored division which aquitted itself well... and this was before any of these formations had any extensive German tutalige, hand holding. AND THAT IS IN MARCH 1941... the pattern was that Italian units that served side by side with the Germans improved and became good divisions and this was without any formal integration or training process

So in answer to your statement that they couldn't have captured a brothel... THEY recaptured all of Libya except Tobruk, and provided 3/4 of the manpower to do it
 
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